RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle

[Eric Kettenburg]

John if I may offer somewhat of a defense of Scott, who certainly does not need me to defend him, I don't believe I've ever read a post of his which in anyway argued for or against the merit, quality or otherwise of any gun under discussion.  As far as I've seen, his postings almost solely focus upon any period / 1st hand documentation, and interpretation of such documentation.  Discussion and debate in regard to documentary sources in no way denigrates any given piece, in my opinion.  For far, far too many years, there has been a huge abundance of inaccurate, shoddy, or otherwise downright false "documentation" surrounding many of these old guns, and I for one find it very refreshing to see a demand for accurate and provable information. 

As Earl Lanning said numerous times when he used to chime in here (and I paraphrase somewhat), there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know."  Speculation is great fun, and can be useful at times, but it should always be accompanied by the caveat that it is speculation.

Anyway I don't see the problem?  I for one am very happy to see him posting here - I've found the information he's presented to be quite valuable.

[spgordon]

I appreciate that, of course, but as you say I can defend myself. Testimonials are embarrassing under any circumstances and especially when they’re not needed. I enjoy the back and forth—my job guarantees it all day long—and would be happy to engage with John, if he wants to point out something that I got wrong. Or any moment, ever, where I gave any opinion about the “merit” or quality of any gun.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Testimonials are embarrassing under any circumstances...

I almost want to put that on a shirt.   

[Eric Kettenburg]

BTW Scott and others, I only posted what I did because I've found over time spent researching and working upon these old pieces that often a 'story' and a particular piece seem to become inseparable, and frankly more often than not the story turns out to be inaccurate when exposed or otherwise challenged with documentable information.  People can get quite huffy about this - I'm not accusing anyone of anything here, just making a general statement based upon my experience.  I don't feel that any particular piece somehow needs a 'backstory' in order to remain relevant, and I don't understand how seeking verifiable information can be taken to be an attack on any given artifact itself.  These antiques pretty much can stand on their own.

[JohnHBryan]

BTW Scott and others, I only posted what I did because I've found over time spent researching and working upon these old pieces that often a 'story' and a particular piece seem to become inseparable, and frankly more often than not the story turns out to be inaccurate when exposed or otherwise challenged with documentable information.  People can get quite huffy about this - I'm not accusing anyone of anything here, just making a general statement based upon my experience.  I don't feel that any particular piece somehow needs a 'backstory' in order to remain relevant, and I don't understand how seeking verifiable information can be taken to be an attack on any given artifact itself.  These antiques pretty much can stand on their own.

much of this post has been edited out due to it adressing persons rather than the topic

This gun needed no help in remaining relevant. It came with no backstory and one has never been created for it. Ernie found the other gun and came to meet with me. I was talking with Allan Martin about making a copy. Long before Ernie. Allen told him where the gun was.

[JTR]

where I gave any opinion about the “merit” or quality of any gun.

Good point, I changed merit to credibility.

Other than that, my point remains the same.
edits
John

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm quite sorry you're taking offense in any way, as I can certainly assure you none has been intended at any point and my general comments (based upon past experience) are not referencing you either directly or indirectly.  I appreciate your sharing.  I'll leave it at that, sir.

[VP]

John,

If you are indeed coming to the Virginia - Kentucky show at Front Royal please bring the rifle along. You can place it on the Kentucky Rifle Foundation's table for safe keeping  and displaying while you enjoy the show. Just a thought.

VP

[spgordon]

I have a bad feeling that the moderators are going to shut this one down. I'd just ask that they not delete the whole thread. It has been really useful, for a whole bunch of reasons.

John, I'm not sure what you mean by "credibility"--but, yes, I have questioned the credibility of the claim that the gun in question is one that Albrecht made for Paxinosa. Mr. Cowan assembled evidence to assert that claim. He based his claim in documents from the Moravian Archives, in information about Paxinosa, and in the association of the panther with Paxinosa. So why would one need to be a collector of rifles to read and evaluate those sorts of claims?

Mr. Cowan got it wrong. This doesn't mean (as John Bryan has said) that it isn't a fantastic gun. John Bryan has said that the gun rests on its own merits and doesn't need a backstory. I wouldn't say anything against his point at all. And I haven't.

Like Eric, I don't know why everybody takes such offense to discussions in which all parties don't agree. Why do people take disagreements about a rifle so personally that they become rude and abusive?

I just don't get it.

And the title of this particular forum is "Study & Collecting of Antique Muzzleloading Firearms." I study, I don't collect. Both have been welcomed here for a long time.

[spgordon]

editsMr. Cowan misunderstood or misrepresented the name of the Island where the Shawnee, for whom Albrecht stocked the gun, lived.

Mr. Cowan pointed to a document that indicated that the Shawnee came from Shawnee Flats near Wilkes Barre (where Paxinosa lived). But the document actually states that the Shawnee came from Great Island, at Lock Haven. Paxinosa did not live there. This is evidence, clear and irrefutable, that the Shawnee for whom Albrecht stocked the rifle could not have been Paxinosa.

What could be clearer? One doesn't need to be a collector to perceive this. One needs to do a little research, which I did.

I think I have provided evidence in every case to support my opinion.

[JohnHBryan]

more edits due to ad hominem argument.

I don’t believe Ernie was wrong. I believe he was brilliant to find the sister rifle and to connect it to Paxinosa and Albrecht. So far a I think he very well may be exactly right. The panther and the butt plate both are consistent with a Pekowi Shawnee Chief. more edits requiredand I’m not going to fully explain here. 

[spgordon]

John, do you believe he translated the name of the Island correctly?

[JohnHBryan]

No I think it fits Paxinosa accurately.

[spgordon]

You think Paxinosa was at Great Island? Or that Mr. Cowan got the name of the Island correct and it was where Paxinosa lived?

[JohnHBryan]

You think Paxinosa was at Great Island? Or that Mr. Cowan got the name of the Island correct and it was where Paxinosa lived?

Today the chief Shawnee from the Big Island was here and brought me some work. He was glad that


That quote? That is Paxinosa.

[spgordon]

So then you do think that Paxinosa lived at Great Island, which was at the current site of Lock Haven.

[DaveM]

JohnHBryan- something you may want to look into further as you research the rifle - I have been looking at the photos and I keep going back at the figure engraved on the butt plate top extension.  That figure certainly does look to me like an indian wearing a colonial coat. 

the most interesting thing to me that the design of the head on your figure seems very similar to heads that were engraved on many other early rifles from the Lehigh Valley (Bethlehem area).  The circular head shape and unusual headdress. Many rifles from the area have engraving of what is referred to as a "Lehigh Indian Head".  the way the head on your figure is engraved, it reminds me very much of other indian head engravings from that area.  It would be interesting to compare the head on your figure to the design of the other Lehigh Indian Head designs. 

Anyway, not sure if anyone ever mentioned to you this indian head design similarity - the engraving design of this head could be a way to show a connection of the gun to the Bethlehem area.  The indian head on your rifle may be the earliest surviving representation of that shown on rifles that followed.  I personally have not seen this type of indian head design on any rifle other than from that area though perhaps others may have. 

[rich pierce]

Normally the moderators would want to edit out or shut down a topic where there are personal attacks and there is some of that here. Though there is no escalation or woundedness at play, it is still very distasteful to see ad hominem responses to logical arguments.

I think at this point, it is clear that hard evidence and reasoning are powerful to some, and an exciting story is powerful to others, and there is no crossing over. So if possible, perhaps we could stop trying to convince the most interested, firmly convinced parties directly (I will have to discipline myself) and continue discussion for the benefit of the room. That may help keep the topic going at a lower temperature.

[JohnHBryan]

Thanks for the information. You aren’t the only one who has noticed that. That very well may be correct.  Someone brought up Antes. There are similarities with Antes and 19, including the possible Indian head, and the same unusual spear point ramrod pipe. Just an observation.

[JohnHBryan]

Normally the moderators would want to edit out or shut down a topic where there are personal attacks and there is some of that here. Though there is no escalation or woundedness at play, it is still very distasteful to see ad hominem responses to logical arguments.

I think at this point, it is clear that hard evidence and reasoning are powerful to some, and an exciting story is powerful to others, and there is no crossing over. So if possible, perhaps we could stop trying to convince the most interested, firmly convinced parties directly (I will have to discipline myself) and continue discussion for the benefit of the room. That may help keep the topic going at a lower temperature.

I think it’s distasteful to come across people on the internet bashing a man who is no longer here to respond, and spouting off incorrect information.  Shut it down for all I care. I didn’t invite this “discussion.”  I’m just here to correct false information being posted on your site.  more editing by consensus of moderators, versus locking or deleting the topic

But in any event, this horse has been well beaten by them as wrell.  Maybe move on to another topic of interest for a while.....  I’m going to see what other research can be done and perhaps she’d more light, and support, onto Ernie’s conclusions.

ETA: I am going to put together a presentation and report, the way Ernie should have done originally. Many people have contacted me privately. If you are willing to help, given that I have a pretty busy day job, that is highly welcomed. There is no doubt Ernie was onto something here. It just is incomplete, and perhaps worded too strongly, and with too much brevity. But if it turns out to be false, I want to know that as well. This gun has been trying to tell us its story for a long time. I’d like to solve it one way or another....

ETA 2: Maybe I’ll set a benchmark of completing this task in time for CLA 2019, or perhaps the KRA 2019, though that might be pushing it, and that agenda may already be full....

[JohnHBryan]

John,

If you are indeed coming to the Virginia - Kentucky show at Front Royal please bring the rifle along. You can place it on the Kentucky Rifle Foundation's table for safe keeping  and displaying while you enjoy the show. Just a thought.

VP

Thank you. Maybe I will do that....

[Mike Brooks]

I can guarantee you there has been even more conversation on this subject via PM, phone and email than you see in this thread. I for one have enjoyed this thread and have formed my own opinions from it as well as cast about for my own research on the subjects discussed. There is a lot of information here if you look for it.

[Daryl]

 

What a wonderfully designed hunting rifle!

[JohnHBryan]

That's beautiful.