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Short barrels, fast twist, roundball projectile

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Acer Saccharum:
A friend of mine sent me what he's been thinking for his next gun. Frankly,I don't have the experience to know what to tell him, but his idea intrigues me. Keep in mind, this is for target shooting only, which is also my main interest.


--- Quote ---Also, I am probably going to take some liberties on the caliber.  Since this will be used for target shooting (I have enough hunting muzzleloaders),  I'm thinking of a smaller caliber...45 with a faster twist than usual..1-48.  This will limit the recoil somewhat and reduce the powder charge.  What really impressed me several years ago was a the world championships (I forget where, maybe Germany) where I watched a Swiss competitor shoot a repro perc. Schuetzen rifle offhand at 50 meters.  The target is similar to a NMLRA 100 yd. target.  He put them all in the 10 ring (13 shots...best 10 count, worst 3 discarded, all his 13 shots were 10's).  Now, I know a few NMLRA guys that, on any given day, could do that also.  But what was really impressive was that you could not even tell he had fired, except for the muzzle smoke:  He didn't move a fraction of an inch.  No discernable recoil.  I spoke to him later (a little confusing since he didn't know English, so we did it in French of which I was semi-fluent at the time) and found that he had a 45 cal very fast twist (1-24) and he was using a round ball with a 35 grain 3F charge.  This may all be gibberish, but I'm going to try a 45 cal., 1-48 twist on the Jaeger.
--- End quote ---

That said, I'd be interested in what you guys think of this, or your experiences with such a rig.

Acer

Roger Fisher:
I'll throw in what little I can here..... Safe to assume that he was not actually shooting 35 grains (as we know it i.e. Goex, Schuetzen etc.) but was shooting Swiss which computes as something like 42 grains (as we know it). That 48 twist I'm told is @!*% critical as to charges meaning fussy.  They will shoot well but you have to find the exact amount of powder to use and no spilling please.  A few grains off = rotten shot!  Slower twists being more forgiving.!  The Schuetzen style of rifle can be held steady by some folks since the hooked butt plate helps prevent the rifle from slipping around on a shooter's shoulder, and helps hold her steady.

Was the Swiss shooter using a palm rest? And a hip rest (elbow on hip)!?

Daryl:
I'd have used a 48" twist in my .45, however was after a trail-match + hunting twist, so chose the 60" GM barrel. Yes, it requires a descent charge to shoot well, oh well, it doesn't kick at all, being a .45 of 9 1/2 pounds. It's preferred charges are 75gr. 3F or 85gr. of 2F - some what heavier than the norm for most shooters of .45 cal. rifles. I see no difference in fouling as they both shoot seemingly 'cleanly' in that the bore is wiped by the next ball/patch to the bottom of the grooves and no fouling builds for a day's shooting.

The 48" twist has long been a favourite of bench shooters, but be aware it requires more care, I think in developing an accurate load. Being, that is may want a specific charge and 5gr. above or below that might not shoot well at all.

The .40 cal. barrel I have is a 48" twist and is somewhat particular in it's diet depending on temperature, it seems. In the winter, (sub freezing)it seems to prefer a light oil lubed patch, while in the summer it likes spit - same patch, but with 2f and a lighter charge as well. Winter uses 65gr. 3F while summer uses 55gr. 2F. With 2F, I have to prick the vent each shot as if I don't in 2 to 4 shots, a piece of fouling at the pan will block the vent. It's easier to prick it each shot - HA! - if I don't though, it shows if I'm flinching when it 'foof's on a blocked vent.

I think twist might depend on what your accuracy requirements are, Tom.  I've a feeling the 48" might be more accurate than the slower twists - but perhaps a bit more finicky to loading. The larger the bore in a 48" twist, perhaps the more finicky.  On the other hand, my .58 has a 48" twist and it shoots well several loads and isn't as finicky to lube as the other two barrels. It does not like heavy charges, though, however will shoot well enough with them for hunting purposes.

The barrel will, of course, will you want it wants or demands.  There isn't much difference between 48" and 60", but small differences like these seem to matter.

I think you can find a load that will shoot amazingly well is a very fast twist like they guy with the Scheutzen rifle.  But one like that might be a close range rifle only. With lower velocities, higher trajectories. I'd not go faster than 38" .50 cal., which shot for me with round ball only after I choked the barrel.

Acer Saccharum:
The above is all I have at this point, Roger.

northmn:
The schuetzen game is different from what most of us are used to.  One individual explained to me that you have more time to shoot and take it.  Fouling is not likely an issue as the gun is cleaned between shots.  Loading is done very carefully.  We have had discussions on this in other threads, but a Schutzen rifle is a heavier off hand rifle such that a 45 with a lighter charge would not kick much.  My wifes rifle is a 45 with a 1-48 twist and is not a fussy as some suggest.  But she did very well with 45 grain charges.  I basically set the rifle up for her and found that range 45-50 grains to be about the best.  Hers was a flintlock, and a percussion may do a little better with lighter loads.  I would be willing to bet taht 35 in a 1-24 inch twist would be accurate.  What I am curious about is the conversion factor as Europeans use metric.

DP 

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