Historically Correct Lines for a Plains/Mountain Rifle

[S99VG]

I've been trying to learn what the lines of a historically correct plains rifle look like and one item I'm having difficulty with is the tang and upper wrist.  I'm a rookie to this stuff so I need to start with something I'm familiar with.  From what I understand about the Lyman GPR is that this area is completely wrong.  Am I correct in understanding that the tang on a more historically correct stock should curve down more sharply and the radius of the stock immediately behind the barrel be less bulbous than it is with the GPR?  Detail pictures on this item and other general characteristics of a plains rifle would be appreciated as well are all responses to my question.

[Daryl]

Yes- check out the thread on the re-build on a Lyman GPR. It will be obvious in the thead's pictures, if you compare them with pictures of a GPR. they are humped and should not be. However, can be re-made to be much more aesthetically pleasing.

[S99VG]

Daryl - thanks.  I revived that thread a couple weeks ago but I will read it some more.  Thanks for confirming my thoughts.  Does lowering the curve on the stock behind the barrel also require reshaping the tang?  Many thanks again.

PS - I went back to the thread and with the better understanding you gave me I see where the tang was rebent and had the bevels filed flat.  I'm looking at a GPR tang right now.  How much of a bend should be made in the tang?  For all practicle purposes the factory tang goes straight back from the breech for about an inch and then bends into a downward radius.  Should the radius start immediately after the hook breech?

[Daryl]

Seems to me, the bend starts right behind the solid portion of the tang, at the joint.
Perhaps Taylor can help?

[smart dog]

Hi,
Check out the following link for views of an original Hawken rifle
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40655.msg395617#msg395617

Use the search function on the menu strip above to look up Plains and Hawken rifles.  You will find a lot of original and contemporary examples. I urge you not to examine GPRs, A&H, or CVA rifles to gain much insight into historically correct plains and mountain rifles.

dave

[S99VG]

smartdog - many thanks again and I agree, one should not be looking at copies for understanding how original stocks were shaped.

PS - I just took a look at  your link and those are some fantastic and very helpful images of the "real deal."

[T*O*F]

Plains rifle is a broad category.  All plains rifles are not Hawkens, yet all answers seem to be concentrated on them.  Which of the above are you actually interested in?  Practically, any large bore, halfstock rifle of the correct time period can be classified as a plains rifle since most were carried west by settlers heading that way.  Thus, unless you have a specific maker's rifle in mind, there are no correct lines for one.

[Scota4570]

I just worked one over.  About none of it is constructed in a historically correct way. 

The tang needs to be bent down at the barrel end.  It then has too much curve so, take some curve out.  IT will end up lower in the middle than before so remove some wood.  Flattening it will make it longer so the rear tang bolt hole will need to be enlarged a hair. 

The biggest eyesore is the lock plate.  The top rear portion is way too bulbous, it really sticks out and looks terrible, IMHO. I suppose a person could fix that.  The only big problem is that the wood needed to patch the lock mortise is a  mystery species. Mine was definitely not walnut.  A good match will be difficult.   Maybe finish the stock super dark to hide the patch. 

I sand blasted mine and used BC hot brown, that aspect looked really good. 

[S99VG]

T*O*F - Nope, I'm just looking at general lines and shapes of the "plains and mountain" rifles that were in use in the early 1800s.  I kind of figure that our modern concept of a 'Plains Rifle' pretty much dates back to the film, Jeremiah Johnson and the TC Hawken; and the early 1970s falls way short of their period of use.

[S99VG]

Scota4570 - mind you I am a rookie so I'm going to ask a dumb question.  Can you cold bend the tang or should it be heated up with a torch?  And if the latter, will that have any effect on the strength of the steel?  Also, I was planning on using a L&R lock - which may have the same aesthetic issues you mentioned.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Do some research.  I suppose this forum is one way to do research, but looking at historical examples will tell you a lot more.  So buy books - that's what I did - to answer your own questions abut architecture.  A good one is Volume III of Jim Gordon's "Great Gunmakers for the Early West".  Trying to describe one curve or another here is not particularly helpful.

That being said, Scota4570's advice is good.  Historical tangs do not have a bevel along the sides - they are radiused gently to coincide with the top of the wrist.  GPR's design is not wrong.  There are lots of rifles extant that vary greatly from what the Hawken bro's did, and some are more aesthetically pleasing than others.  So you have to pick a style that suits you, and go for it.  Being able to recognize what makes the rifle's profile pleasing or not, is very subjective, and requires study.  And then being able to re-create it is another thing altogether.

You can cold bend GPR's tang, and straighten it out as Scota has suggested.  It does not adversely effect its strength, unless you bend it too far, bend it back, bend it again, and again...you get it.  L & R's replacement lock is a super upgrade for the GPR, but the plate is almost identical to the factory one...it has to fill the same mortise.  But again, it is not a Hawken rifle you are making, so relax.  It will still work as advertised and look fine.

[Scota4570]

The tang... I put the vertical  portion in the vice and heated the horizontal part of the tang just behind the hook socket  to encourage the bend at the right spot.  I was fear full that if I did it cold I might bend the part that fits against the breech.   

The replacement lock will not change the lock mortise.  It will be a higher quality part.  The Lyman locks are pretty sad, IMHO. 

[T*O*F]

Didn't Hanson write a book on The Plains Rifle?  I thought I had a copy but don't find it on my bookshelves.

[Scota4570]

Yes,

https://www.amazon.com/Plains-Rifle-Charles-Hanson/dp/088227015X

[S99VG]

Gentlemen - thank you for your input and advice.  I found the photos that were put up on the link very helpful.  I realize that there is likely a range of shapes that fit within the general "plains rifle" style, but it is the general style I'm looking for and a project on which I can wet my feet and build some basic skills.  Many thanks to all again.

[ScottH]

Look here, this guy knows plains rifles and he is a member on this site

http://www.donstith.com/muzzle_loading_rifles.html

[Daryl]

Firearms of the American West 1803 - 1865 on page 231. is a picture of a .75 calibre, appears straight octagonal barreled rifle, made by Krider, Philladelphia, "perhaps for western use". On the cheek piece, a silver oval cartouche is inscribed "Presented to/Capt. W.H. Owen/by/Major Chevallie/April 9th 1852"

This rifle is not really different in appearance from ANY English Sporting rifle of the same period.  It does bear 2 forend wedges, but has what appears a Penn. trigger guard with middle finger rest, English lock and breech, with a drip rail & DS triggers. The barrel appears to be about 30" long.  It actually looks very similar to Taylor's Lang or my .69 rifle by Taylor. Had it been noted to have been make in England, I would not have been surprised. Thus, the plains rifles 'of the day' were indeed of a variety of shapes and sizes.

Of course there are a lot of generic "western" or "plains" rifle pictured in this book. It is well worth collecting. As well as the same period, 1803 through 1865, handguns, pistols, revolvers, contract guns and rifles, muskets, smoothbores and "Indian Guns".  On the same page as the afor mentioned large calibre rifle, is a picture of a 13 pound, 34" bl. 58 calibre Leman full stock "Improved Bear Rifle" (so stamped). With only a 34" bl. you KNOW it is of decent girth, being 13 pounds weight.

[stuart cee dub]

A useful source is also Charles Hanson's Trade Rifle Sketch Book .I bought my copy from Track some years ago .

It has some simple line drawings of trade rifles other than Hawken rifles (which is a separate study in and of itself ).

I used it to make up the pattern for a Scroll Guard rifle to get the lines right .

Plains rifles are really a broad and fascinating category .While most here seem to concentrate on finely carved Eastern made PA rifles ,for a lot of us less skilled gunmakers these plains rifles are easier to replicate and are historically correct especially for those of us west of the Mississippi .

Another rifle which I find absolutely fascinating is in the gun Library attached to this site , a Melchior Fordney, in walnut that looks as if it was purpose built for the western trade with a seriously big hole on the muzzle end .
.
It has very fetching and pure lines. One contemporary maker I spoke to thought it was a restock job when we were discussing a build but the commentators on the attached thread indicated it was likely to have been built by Fordney himself specifically for the western frontier. Who really knows ?
In any case it would make a fine build in any case .The proportions and stock lines are those of a real master.

I applaud any maker here who makes a non- Hawken trade rifle. As a category of guns just not enough are getting built ,and, as a category, I think they are grossly underappreciated by modern gun builders. 



 

     

 

[S99VG]

The tang needs to be bent down at the barrel end.  It then has too much curve so, take some curve out.  IT will end up lower in the middle than before so remove some wood.  Flattening it will make it longer so the rear tang bolt hole will need to be enlarged a hair. 

I did something I don't do too often.  I used my brains and took a look at the Hawken and Plains rifle style tangs pictured on Track of the Wolf.  Man, I really got to get a handle on this thinking stuff...