Cleaning a Hawken

[OldMtnMan]

I haven't had much to say on this forum because the very idea that I can tell most of you guys anything you don't already know is laughable. So I keep my mouth shut and ears open. But I do agree about the flash rusting from hot water. I used to do that and would get that little smudge of red on a patch afterwards. So I went to cold water. Hot water doesn't affect my stainless Ruger Old Army but even it cleans up just as well with cold water. To each their own, of course, but the hot water doesn't seem to have any real advantage to me.

OK, I'll shut up now. Maybe in another year or so I'll have something else to say. 

Try this. Put some butter on a knife and run it under cold water. That might simulate some of the lubes used. The butter will stay on the knife with cold water. Now run it under hot water and it disappears right away.

[Daryl]

He did something wrong that wasn't the hot water. Did he dry and oil right away?

If two guys use hot water and one gets rust and the other doesn't. Where is the problem?

Absolutely - Peter would not even crack a beer or have a drink of water after shooting before cleaned his rifle that Taylor built him.

He used boiling hot water - every time for cleaning and. He immediately ran an oil patch down the bore after flushing the barrel and it always came out red- rust!

 The effects of this flash rusting was accumulative on that barrel to the point it had fine pitting, one end to the other, very even.

I think perhaps 12L14 flash-rusts more quickly than does the harder steels used by GM, Colerain and perhaps some others.

I use cold tap water as one of the most famous of all gun manufacturers says "USE NOTHING BUT COLD WATER".  Do no use hot water due

to the flash rusting and certainly NEVER use boiling or hot water in valuable antiques. That company is Holland and Holland, makers of fine

rifles and shotguns from the very early 1800's. I am not talking about the American company who uses that name - perhaps they spell Holland with

only 1 "L".  The SXS rifle H*&H built for Prince Charles a number of years back cost him 250,000 Crowns/Quid/Pounds. They have an idea of what

they are talking about & told my friend he will ruin his valuable black powder SXS rifles and shotguns if he used hot water in them.

After reading that letter, back in 1977, I quite using hot water.  The barrels of all of my rifles and smoothbore shine like brand new. Hot water

is not necessary & indeed, does not clean any better in the first place. In the second place, it is another step not needed.  In the third, you take the

chance of ruining your barrel is you do not possess one of those remarkable barrels that we are told does not flash rust.

Like Taylor said, ANY rust is like cancer. It's effects are accumulative.

[OldMtnMan]

Until someone does a scientific test on cold and hot water cleaning. We're all blowing smoke.

I know what works for me as all of you do for you. Bore lights are cheap and will tell you if you have rust. I have none and use hot water. I'm not trying to convince anybody to do it my way. I'm simply saying how I do it and if wasn't working i'd change. I never change what's working.

[Marcruger]

I clean by pulling the barrel, sticking the breech end in cool or room temp water, and pumping the water in and out repeatedly until the grunge is flushed out.  I run a few patches, then flush it again.  I also run an undersized bore brush down into the powder chamber, and a patch on a loop jag, but in reality the flush does the work in the chamber.  I patch it a few more times to make sure everything is gone, and follow-up with a water displacer.

I also pipe cleaner the area of the flash channel to make sure nothing is lurking in there.  I oil that too.   

I ALWAYS come back in a day or two and run some preservative through the bore the get that "next day" assurance that it is all good to store. 

Store MUZZLE DOWN so no oil accumulates in the chamber over time. 

Before any shooting, I go back and wipe out the bore with alcohol, and do the same for the flash channel and chamber.  I hate misfires, so I go to that trouble. 

I agree, any rust is bad rust. 

Hope this helps someone.  God Bless,   Marc

[RonC]

I must qualify my statements because I have only 5-6 years of opportunities with traditional muzzleloaders to make mistakes.

First, a comment on the bore lights: aside from several types of bore lights, I also have an inexpensive "bore scope" that was made for other purposes, but works well in down to .45 cal bores. Barrels that look clean and smooth with bore lights can look horrid with the bore scope.

I have a Pedersoli made barrel in .50 cal that shined like new using the bore scope. I read some recommendations about using hot water, so I tried it on the barrel after shooting. I put a toothpick in the flash hole and poured the hot water in. Then, I almost immediately pulled the toothpick and let the water run out the hole a bit and then poured the rest out of the barrel. I ran patches down the bore to dry it and then applied Barricade to patches and oiled the bore. I run good, rough pipe cleaners down into the breech to clean out residuals. This all was done quickly.

The patches started to come out with orange on them. Holy, Moly! Patch after patch came out with an orange stain.

I put in the bore lights and the bore looked beautiful. The bore scope showed a different condition. There was a patchy orange scale all up and down the bore. The surface of the bore roughened such that there were little cotton fibers from the patches caught on surface roughness.

How did I handle the newly formed scale and roughness? With some trepidation about using a brass brush in a muzzleloader barrel (I had one stick in the barrel that was a trial to remove), I ran one up and down the barrel about 20 times. I followed that with a nylon brush covered with a patch wet with Hoppes for black powder and scrubbed many more times. There was improvement, but the rust in the grooves was stubborn. Next,  I used the nylon brush with a patch covered with Simichrome polish. That removed a significant amount of scale and roughness. leaned out all the Simichrome and finished with patch saturated with either Barricade or EezOx. I use these oils successfully on all my muzzleloaders and classic battle rifles.

Still, there remains some small patches of roughness visible with the bore scope, but invisible with the bore lights. I never have been able to get the bore back to the condition it started out with or to match my other, pristine muzzleloader barrel bores.

From my anecdotal experience and comparing the hot water treatment with cold water used in my other muzzleloaders, hot water will never touch my bores again.
Ron

[OldMtnMan]

That's why I put a little Ballistol in the hot water. Clean white patches.

[Arcturus]

There must be a difference in barrel steels that causes this flash rusting, as I've never experienced it in several different barrels...Colerain, Caywood, and others.  Like OldMtnMan, I always use Mink oil, bear oil, tallow, or combinations of animal fats in all my guns all the time, so I have not just powder fouling, but grease that needs to be removed and I've found warm water does it faster and better when available, and the heated barrel dries quicker by evaporating any moisture faster... I don't use wd40 or other petroleum oils.  I'm not doubting the people that say flash rusting happens, but it doesn't happen to me, so if I'm able to heat a little water for cleaning I do, if not I use cold and it takes more time and patches.

[Rsl]

I always use a thin cleaning rod say a 22cal rod with a slot and a small cloth. That gets down into the patent breech area where your bore size rod wont. I also use q tips and pipe cleaners through the clean out screw. Hope this helps.  Rick

[WaterFowl]

Tried the boiling water trick once...yep flash rust right now...The end of boiled water for me....it happens.

[OldMtnMan]

Flash rust needs a little love too.

You guys are heartless.

[smokinbuck]

I'm all for someone else loving the flash rust!!!
Mark

[OldMtnMan]

Tough crowd.