HELP...HANG FIRES

[BigLead]

I have a .50 flint T/C.  The first few shots went off splendidly, very quick ignition.  Then it began to delay and finally turned into a hang fire.  I have cleaned the pan, I cleaned the flash hole, I used less powder in pan, more powder in the pan, I moved the pan powder closer to and further from the flash hole, I adjusted the distance from the flint to the frizzen (at half cock).  The flint has less than 25 strikes, it's not beat up by any means, just not as sharp as when new.  I've done all I know to do.  I can't get it back to where it was on day ONE.  I'd appreciate any help you can give.  I've shot percussion BP for 30 years, this is the first rock lock I've ever fooled with.  I like 'em, I just need to give over the learning curve.   

[ddoyle]

If a t/c has a reduced diameter powder chamber like a lyman flintlock it is possible to pack it full off enough junk to have a problem (ask me how I know this ).  Figure out what is happening between the vent and the rifling and make a little scrapper that fits down there, could be pretty choked up. Hard to believe but I found disticntive cleaning patch lint/thread from a previous shooting session when I finally clued in. It somehow survived enthusiastic cleaning, storage and a frustrating shooting session. 

[smylee grouch]

What is your load combo? What are you using for patch lube?

[ltdann]

when you say "hang-fire", do you mean the pan flashes and there's a noticeable delay between the pan and the main charge?  Or is it a case of delay of the pan flashing after the lock cock stops?

What powder are you using for the main charge (type/grade) and powder for the pan (type/grade)?  For example, main charge -goex/2f

[BigLead]

It is what I think is a text book hang-fire.  The pan flashes and there is a distinct pause of a fraction of a second before the discharge...click, sizz....bang!  I'm using 80 gr 2f black, with 1/3 to 1/2  pan of 4f.  490 ball and .010 cotton ticking, lubed with Nat Lube 1000.  I have lubed with both liquid and wax variations.  The barrel feels clean and very smooth all the way to the bottom...no discernable 'rings' or rough spots.  When I got the gun it had been setting for quite some time. It had not been shot much. The first time I cleaned it, I detected a rough spot about 2/3 down the tube.  I used some PURE copper scrub pad wrapped around a 'mop' and rubbed it out, then cleaned normally.  Barrel is now smooth.   

[Mike Brooks]

Pump that barrel out in a bucket of hot soapy water with a jag and tight patch.

[George Sutton]

Try a breech scraper. You may be getting build up on the face of the breech plug.

[ddoyle]

I took the time to look it up for you- and yes the T/C breech has a powder chamber did you clean this or just push crud into it? Check it.

face of the breech plug.

He cannot reach the face of the plug with a scrapper much bigger then 3/8ths

[Stoner creek]

Sounds like touch hole issues possibly. Does the gun have a touch hole liner? Sometimes the hole needs to be opened up a tiny bit. I open mine with the smallest drill bit commonly available at your local hardware store. 1/16”. No bigger.
Is the touch hole located at or slightly above the plane of the lock pan? Sometimes a low touch hole will slow it down.
Try loading with 3f powder.
Are you sure that there is no hard pan in the breech?  Block the touch hole with a tooth pick and soak the barrel with water/wonder/black powder solvent.
There is something slowing you down, could be one of the above.

[ltdann]

Pump that barrel out in a bucket of hot soapy water with a jag and tight patch.

What Mr. Brooks said..... and I mean HOT.  I put the touch hole under the water and use the rod and patch to suction the water in and out of the touchhole until the barrels too hot to hold.

Keep doing it with clean water until it stays clean.   Then use wd-40 inside.

[smylee grouch]

Now knowing the load, I would throw that lube out and use something else and use a thicker patch and don't use boiling water. You risk the chance of flash rust with that hot of water.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

ltdan's advice:  I would disregard!!  Hot water won't clean better than just luke warm water, and will definitely flash rust your bore before you can get it dried with cotton patches.  Having the heat of the water and subsequently the barrel, dry the bore is asking for a ruined bore.  Dry it yourself with dry patches on a tight jag rather than having it dry itself.  And I don't care who does this - has been for thirty years - and gets away with it.  I cannot.

[TommyG]

Taylor's advice is spot on.  We have a couple of Lymans with the powder chamber breach.  As Mike Brooks mentioned, stick the barrel in a bucket of lukewarm water, jag with a tight fitting patch, I usually give it 10 -15 strokes or so, then drain & dry patch until clean.  Lube with your choice, but clean the lube with Denatured alcohol before shooting.  One thing I might add, with the .50 cal, I use a rifle cleaning rod with a .38 cal bore brush to clean the powder chamber when the barrel is still in the bucket.  Are you swabbing between shots?  Maybe that could be pushing some of the gunk into your powder chamber, hence the reason for the first few going off no problem, but then experiencing hangfires as the chamber becomes progressively fouled.  I've never experienced this on our Lymans, but have on some of my other flintlocks.

[Black Hand]

I have a .50 flint T/C.  The first few shots went off splendidly, very quick ignition.  Then it began to delay and finally turned into a hang fire.  I have cleaned the pan, I cleaned the flash hole, I used less powder in pan, more powder in the pan, I moved the pan powder closer to and further from the flash hole, I adjusted the distance from the flint to the frizzen (at half cock).  The flint has less than 25 strikes, it's not beat up by any means, just not as sharp as when new.  I've done all I know to do.  I can't get it back to where it was on day ONE.  I'd appreciate any help you can give.  I've shot percussion BP for 30 years, this is the first rock lock I've ever fooled with.  I like 'em, I just need to give over the learning curve.   

The liner may be a problem. Try drilling out to 1/16" or replacing with a White Lightning liner.

[OldMtnMan]

A clogged breech channel could have happened with the previous owner and flushing won't get it out. Flushing works fine if you start with a clean channel. The barrel had a bad spot in it which shows the previous owner didn't maintain it like he should have.

[smylee grouch]

If you swab between shots with a tight fitting patch/jag you might be forcing the fouling into the antichamber. If you do swab between shots it might help to use a smaller diameter jag. Plus your patch lube and how its applied might be the culprit. I have better luck with the patch soaked clear through than with the lube just smeared on the surface.

[bob in the woods]

Here in the humid summer, a number of guns will start hang firing or just stop firing altogether, at some of the matches I attend.
Almost all of these have the reduced size powder chamber. I've made a few chamber cleaners for these when requested, but can't say that I like the design of these breeches.  Wouldn't own one myself. 

[Don Steele]

I feel like I'm piling on, but I have 40 yrs experience with T/C rifles and manage to enjoy them without the "issues" that can arise from their "patent breech" design.
Mike Brooks has it right. The symptoms you describe are absolutely what you expect to see when "stuff" has made it's way into the reduced area between your main charge and the ventliner.
Your report says "the first few shots went off splendidly, very quick ignition. Then it began to delay and finally turned into a hang fire"
From that, it appears that there wasn't anything major wrong with the rifle when you got it and that the problems you're having are related to what you're doing at the range.
Jumping ahead to cleaning...I'm a big fan of the "pumping method" Mike mentioned. The good folks at T/C built those rifles to make them easy to clean so take advantage of it. Pull the barrel, pull the vent liner and go to pumping a solution of hot soap and water through the barrel. Follow with  plain water. Like Mike said...use a tight patch on your jag so you can get some force and water won't migrate over the jag.
At this point...I'm going to diverge from other's comments and tell you what I've been doing for 40 years, without a problem.
I'm one of those who finishes the water cleaning by pouring a cup of boiling water through the barrel...(you will want a thick piece of towel or pot holder handy). When the last of the water has run through the barrel...I IMMEDIATELY run a patch wet with Ballistol behind it. Then a couple more while the barrel is still warm. I've read all the comments and warnings about "flash rust" over the years. I'm not questioning other's experience, just sharing mine.  All I can say is my original T/C barrels still look nice and shiny inside and still shoot REAL WELL.
I have a small bore light that. The tip kinda fits into the threaded hole at the vent after I've pulled the liner. When I check it from that end with the light, I can see the light coming in the the vent, through the "patent breech" and into the barrel and know that the reduced passage is clear.
On the topic of vent liners...
A while back I stumbled on a T/C vent liner that works real well. It's T/C No. 7327. 1/4 x 28 threads as are all the T/C barrels. They call it a "Flintlock Touchhole Bushing". It's coned on the inside. The outside is also sort of "coned" in that it has a 1/8" hole to allow for the use of a 1/8" allen wrench for removal/installation (included). It's not very "traditional", but it works great when reliability is the first priority. I use on in my flintlock hunting rifle. It's a 50 cal T/C "Hawken style" I don't have any issues with delays or hangfires on that rifle. .
Sorry to be so wordy...it's early and I tend to run on. 
Get that rifle clean and get it back to shooting without delays and hangfires...then we can work out how to keep it that way.
Hope this helps.

[little joe]

 My 2 cents worth is free today is, I only target shoot any more and use only slobbers (spit) as my expeariance  with lubes there  is a build up with crud on the face of the breech plug and in  the case of the TC  breech plugging the BP channel.  Clean as Brooks said and use spit as a lube and a new flint and give a try and if it don,t work try something else. On a cap lock you are forcing a jet of  flame into the breech and on a flinter not so much. I would only use a lube on a hunting weapon. I,m pushing 50 yrs of BP shooting now and have tryed all kinds of lubes and pree lubed patches and all that magic stuff that is supposed to help, but is only making swimming pool ad Corvette payments for some one else. Give this a try , I,ll shut up now.

[Standing Bear]

My hunting rifle is a .54 flinter w GM barrel w the TC style breech plug Track then sold.  I shot it in a trail walk and again at a monthly match to get ready for deer season. 15-25 shots each outing.

Did not wipe between shots at either outing. 85 gr Goex FFg then tight Ball/ patch (.535 and .018). I cut at the muzzle and patch is WET w saliva. Seating the ball wipes the barrel and cleaning is easy.  First shot deer or elk hunting lube w mink oil. Any follow ups are w saliva.

As said above submerge the breech and flush vigorously (I don’t remove the vent liner but did remove nipples back in my per-suction days). I use WD40 and have for 45 years.  When she comes out of the safe, I run some 91% alcohol down the bore and on a patch then load and go.

[Lee44shootercnb]

Gone

[BigLead]

Thanks to all you guys for your valuable information and experience.  I did not know that T/C had a Pre Chamber.  I suspect that it may be partially plugged even after my cleaning method.  My method is to remove the nipple or touchhole liner and pour boiling soapy water down the barrel until the barrel is so hot I can't hold it without wearing welder gloves or a pot holder.  I then thread in a nipple with a platic 'fuel' line attached and drop the end of this in a small pail of hot soap water.  Using a tight patch I pump the barrel several strokes.  Usually change out this water once, and repeat.  I then use conventional cleaner for muzzle loaders with patch. Next I rinse out the barrel with the rest of the clean soapy hot water.  A few patches to sop up the majority of the water and then I let the hot barrel evaporate the remainder.  Only take a min or two.  NO flash rust.  I then lube the barrel with my choice of lube while the steel is receptive.  I have a Ozark Mtn Arm .52 Hawken I built 35 yr ago, cleaned in this manner every time, NO rust.

[BigLead]

I do have one more question though, how is one to avoid pushing fouling into the Pre Chamber?  I mean, whether you patch the bore between shots or whether you just load the next round, you have to PUSH that crud down toward the chamber....before you can PULL it back up to the muzzle.  ??  Am I to do a full blown clean between every two shots?!  I dont think so. 

[Scota4570]

"The pan flashes and there is a distinct pause of a fraction of a second before the discharge...click, sizz....bang! "

I built a TC flint kit in 1975 when I was 13 YO.  I shot it to death over a period of a couple of years.  The above is a pretty good description of how it worked.  Mine also ate flints and used up frizzens.  I did not know any better.  I learned to shoot it well anyway.  With a long unpredictable delay you really learn to follow through or you wont hit anything.  My first flintlock buck included a complete misfire on the first try then the second try was the usual click-clack-fizz-bang.  I got my buck and was elated.

When I built a well designed flintlock with a good lock it was a real eye opener.  I now prefer flintlocks over cap guns. 

You could re-engineer the breech plug and get an RPL lock.  Although, at that point, a new rifle might make more sense.  I regret converting my TC to caplock.  I would not modify your TC.  Just learn from it and enjoy it for what it is. 

Good luck-have fun. 

[ddoyle]

I do have one more question though, how is one to avoid pushing fouling into the Pre Chamber?

Glad to save someone else the third trip to the range frustration.
It wont be a problem when you are shooting cause the chamber is going to be full of powder pefore anyting gets pushed in. If it starts clean you will be ok. Once I cleaned mine (for the first time) trouble went away not to return, but of course I now clean the chamber properly at the end of a shoot.