Cut patches on first shot...

[stretchman]

I have a rifle that cuts patches on the first shot from a clean barrel.  If, the first patch can be found, it will have a hole burned through the center.  All other recovered patches look perfect.  At 100 yards its not uncommon for the first shot to be 12" off from what will be a 4" 5 shot group.

My rifle is a 62 caliber, and I use a .615 round ball with a .022" canvas patch lubed with mink oil, or a .022" teflon coated patch from Minuet Man.  I run a damp patch down the bore between shots.  Before firing the rifle, I always run 3-4 cleaning patches down the bore to remove oils left in the barrel to protect it from rust. 

My question is why does the barrel consistently cut patches on the first shot from a clean barrel?

[smylee grouch]

Hi and welcome strechman, It sounds like you have a perplexing problem. How much powder are you using? Are you using the same loading tools, short starter for example, for all the shots? Is your crown nice and smooth? I don't know your bore diameter but it sounds like you have a nice tight load combo. First thing I would try is to give that crown a nice smooth finish and go from there. Good luck,shoot lots and take notes.

[OldMtnMan]

Cut patches are cut on the side of the patch where the rifling is. The middle of the patch doesn't touch the bore, so can't be getting cut.

I would think a hole blown in the middle would be a problem with the patch material/thickness or a really strong load. I'm sort of lost otherwise.

[smylee grouch]

With a real tight load combo I could see that you might be streching the patch material as you load if your crown wasn't smooth but why it only does it on the first shot is for now the mystery. Your load, .615 and .022 twice adds up to .659, tight in a .640+ bore unless I added it up wrong.

[little joe]

I have no suggestions but if I put a shot in the bank and then shoot 4 in. group at 100 yds I would have no complaints.

[hanshi]

How deep are the grooves in your rifle?  Strange problem you have.  You might try a felt, or some other material, over the powder to protect the patch.  Sorry, but that's all I can think of, off hand.

[rich pierce]

I抦 with Smylee on this one.

[OldMtnMan]

What is your powder load?

[Tim Ault]

I have a sorta similar issue with my 50 cal no matter what patch thickness I use the first shot will alway have a cut patch at the rifling contact points  after that first shot  the patches look fine . Don't matter if it's my 40 gr load or the hunting load of 70 gr same with lube type . Accuracy don't seem to change much at 50 yd so I stopped worrying about it  gun is a DGW poor  boy with not real deep grooves .

[mark esterly]

if i were in that situation after the 3 or 4 patches to remove the left over oil i would run a cleaning patch down with the mink oil before the first shot and see the result.

[stretchman]

Thanks for all the replies.  The lands on this rifle are .014" deep.  Before going to the .022" patching, nearly every load resulted in a cut/burned patch.  The current load that I have been using is 140 grains of Swiss 1.5 F powder.  The last target that I shot at 100 yards was a 4" 5 shot group, but I can not consistently shoot 4" groups at 100 yards.  The gun is primarily a hunting rifle.  Ideally, I would prefer the deer to be 50 yards or less, but that's not how it works all the time.  That is why I like to try and develop a load that can group at 100 yards.  If I was shooting just shooting paper targets, it wouldn't be a big deal to have a rifle that throws the first shot, but for hunting the first shot is everything.

With lighter loads, the rifle will have some cut patches that are not not burned.  My guess is, with the higher powder charge, the cut patch catches fire as hot gasses blow through the void.  I have run a patch of minks oil through the bore after the preservative oils were removed, and had the same results as a dry bore on the first shot.  I have considered using a over the powder or over the shot wad on top of the powder charge.  I have also thought of using chamois for patching material.

 

[Canute Rex]

My suggestion is that you get a 5/8" arch punch and a worn out wool felt boot liner. Punch a bunch of 5/8" felt wads (out of the side, not the sole) and soak them in melted beeswax/olive oil mix. Thumb one down over powder and you'll get a near perfect gas seal and no patch burning. At 140 grains you are really spanking that ball.

You might want to cut out another piece of that boot liner and put it on the butt plate. Ow.

[Hungry Horse]

 I would say the 140 grains of 11/2F Swiss powder is the issue, along with possibly patching that is either too tight, or is degraded and coming apart when forced down the barrel. You might try linen patching rather than cotton, it doesn抰 degrade like cotton, and is a lot tougher.

  Hungry Horse

[OldMtnMan]

Yes, that a stout load. How's the recoil?

[Daryl]

Burned patch on first shot- in the middle, not the engraving sides - the middle. After that, normal patches - very curious & I have no explanation.

.620" + .014" + .014" = 648" groove to groove

.615" ball, + .022 + .022" = .659" for  .011" compression, or .0055" per side.

One would think .0055" (5 1/2 thou) compression in the bottom of each groove would suffice for a seal. 

1 suggestion perhaps, if you have a local Joanne's Fabrics, try the 11 ounce denim. I checked it out in the Yuma, Arizona Joanne's fabric store last week, along with the linens.

The linens they had were too thin, imho.  I suspect that that "chain" might have the same suppliers and thus the same material in stock.     

[Robby]

I had the very same thing happening and posted the same question here some years ago. I never did find an answer for it. I was using spit as a lube, or a 'moose milk' concoction, depending on how the saliva was running at any given session. One thing I did find was that when prepping for hunting season I lubed the patch with mink oil because that is my hunting patch preference. First shot, cold barrel, the patch would be pretty much reusable, no tear, no burn. When I prep for hunting I fire the one shot, completely clean the gun before reloading so the gun will be as it would out hunting. Is all that necessary, probably not, but That is the way I do it. With the mink oil I never had a bad patch on that first shot. Moose milk(?), yes the first shot, the patch is still mangled. Maybe the oil makes the patch just a bit denser, and a tad elastic. Ah well, just another mystery on a long list of mysteries.
Robby

[OldMtnMan]

I had the very same thing happening and posted the same question here some years ago. I never did find an answer for it. I was using spit as a lube, or a 'moose milk' concoction, depending on how the saliva was running at any given session. One thing I did find was that when prepping for hunting season I lubed the patch with mink oil because that is my hunting patch preference. First shot, cold barrel, the patch would be pretty much reusable, no tear, no burn. When I prep for hunting I fire the one shot, completely clean the gun before reloading so the gun will be as it would out hunting. Is all that necessary, probably not, but That is the way I do it. With the mink oil I never had a bad patch on that first shot. Moose milk(?), yes the first shot, the patch is still mangled. Maybe the oil makes the patch just a bit denser, and a tad elastic. Ah well, just another mystery on a long list of mysteries.
Robby

That's why I keep everything exactly the same for sight in, practice and hunting. I use mink oil for hunting, so I use it for all practice too. Hunting is always my goal. Not showing off small groups on targets. Common sense tells me to keep everything the same. Mink oil is cheap.

[stretchman]

The theory that I have on why the barrel cuts/burns patches may be completely off, but here goes.  The barrel and the rifle were made by Charlie Hart (of Hart Custom Barrels) sometime in the early 1980s.  The rifle is a massive.  It is based on an English sporting rifle with a barrel that is 1.250" across the flats.  According to the late Dave Higginbotham of Lone Star Rifles, Charlie built it as his personal rifle for hunting Elk in Colorado. It was made for shooting heavy charges of powder.  Recoil for the most part, is not an issue with this rifle.  The bore has visible inclusions from its manufacture.  When using a tight patch, the bore feels smooth, but just doesn't have the same level of "slickness" as a Green Mountain or other comparable custom barrel.  Viewing the bore with a bore light reveals inclusions that run parallel along the top of some of the lands.  Some of the worst inclusions are located near the breach. 

As mentioned earlier, the first shot from a clean bore will nearly always produce a cut/burned patch, and a flyer.  Based on habits developed through competitive shooting, I wipe the bore between shots with a dampened patch.  The second and following shots will be on.  Recovered patches, with the exception of the first look nearly perfect.  A few of the recovered patches on close examination will show some signs of cutting.  The weave will look frayed, or burred in some places, but the "cut" doesn't penetrate the patch.  My thinking is that the powder fouling softened by the moist patch fills the voids, or inclusions from the rough cut bore.  The damp fouling, or just the moisture from the "cleaning patch" also likely helps lubricate the next patched round ball.

The most sensible thing to do would be to experiment with shooting a fouling shot and then wiping the bore with a patch dampened with minks oil, or bore butter, letting the rifle set for the better part of the day and then firing to see if it produces a cut patch and or a flyer.

[OldMtnMan]

Mink oil and bore butter should never be used in the same sentence.

One is the best lube. The other the worse patch lube.

[Daryl]

The theory that I have on why the barrel cuts/burns patches may be completely off, but here goes.  The barrel and the rifle were made by Charlie Hart (of Hart Custom Barrels) sometime in the early 1980s.  The rifle is a massive.  It is based on an English sporting rifle with a barrel that is 1.250" across the flats.  According to the late Dave Higginbotham of Lone Star Rifles, Charlie built it as his personal rifle for hunting Elk in Colorado. It was made for shooting heavy charges of powder.  Recoil for the most part, is not an issue with this rifle.  The bore has visible inclusions from its manufacture.  When using a tight patch, the bore feels smooth, but just doesn't have the same level of "slickness" as a Green Mountain or other comparable custom barrel.  Viewing the bore with a bore light reveals inclusions that run parallel along the top of some of the lands.  Some of the worst inclusions are located near the breach. 

As mentioned earlier, the first shot from a clean bore will nearly always produce a cut/burned patch, and a flyer.  Based on habits developed through competitive shooting, I wipe the bore between shots with a dampened patch.  The second and following shots will be on.  Recovered patches, with the exception of the first look nearly perfect.  A few of the recovered patches on close examination will show some signs of cutting.  The weave will look frayed, or burred in some places, but the "cut" doesn't penetrate the patch.  My thinking is that the powder fouling softened by the moist patch fills the voids, or inclusions from the rough cut bore.  The damp fouling, or just the moisture from the "cleaning patch" also likely helps lubricate the next patched round ball.

The most sensible thing to do would be to experiment with shooting a fouling shot and then wiping the bore with a patch dampened with minks oil, or bore butter, letting the rifle set for the better part of the day and then firing to see if it produces a cut patch and or a flyer.

I think I might understand now - these inclusions (worse at the breech), when clean, allow blow-by that burns the patch on the first shot.  After that, the fouling fills the inclusions & blow-by/burning is no longer happening.

There likely is no 'remedy' other than to always first a fouling shot.

I agree to leave the lip-balm (bore butter) for some other use, like throw it away.

Letting the rifle sit for a time before loading and shooting again? I see no advantage to that.

A 'nice' crown will prevent cutting at the muzzle.

There is a BIG difference between a cut patch and a burnt patch. However, if the patch is cut at the muzzle on loading, it is likely it will incinerate upon firing.

[Robby]

My bore is as shiny and flawless as the bumper on a 55 Buick, and crowned just as Daryl has recommended. Your inclusions speak volumes Stretch, mine is still a mystery. Even so, its a good shooter.
Robby

[stretchman]

I guess I didn't use my words well in the later half of my previous post.  I would foul the barrel, run a cleaning patch down the bore coated with mink oil, load the gun, let it sit for the better part of a day, and then test fire the rifle to see if it was cured of its of its desire to cut/burn patches.  The main concern of hunting with a fouled barrel is that the powder fouling will dry in the bore and throw the first shot.  My hope is the mink oil will keep the fouling soft.

[Daryl]

I kind-a understand now - how did that work?

[Daryl]

Further thought - your barrel's "inclusions" - are there possibly any that run out toward the outside of the barrel and just how safe is a barrel with "inclusions" - are they gouges as you noted in one sentence? - 'grooves", grooves or gouges with slag? ?

[stretchman]

The inclusions are gouges on the top of some of the lands.  The rifle is safe to fire.