Ithaca Hawken pics added finished pics 1-17-18

[mountainman70]

Hi friends,  just picked up a nice Ithaca Hawken. I have had one back in 2010,and it was in near mint condition,and  a factory built one. The one I have now is very nice, but some areas make me suspect a kit job. Mostly small things like the fit/alignment of the triggers,having to set them before it can be cocked,and the tang screws look like hardware screws,and the heads bunged up. I have ordered new screws from track. Barrel is numbers 1133 g Triggs are Cherry Corners,lock is unmarked.

I don't plan to refinish it,it just shows honest closet wear and dings, clean to the point of wondering if it was ever fired. Might resell it ,who knows.
Any ifo would be appreciated. Have a goodun, Dave

So much for this plan. I am currently reshaping stock for a better look. Dave F

[Mtn Meek]

Dave,

I put together a brief history on the Ithaca Hawken here:

http://grrw.org/ithaca-hawken-ithaca-gun-co/

As far as I could tell from my research, Ithaca (and Navy Arms) marked both the factory and kit rifles with the same barrel markings including serial numbers.  About the only way to distinguish a factory finish from a kit build is quality of finish and small details as you've noted.

As you will see in the link above, Ithaca bought Cherry Corners, so all the parts on the Ithaca Hawken except the barrel, stock, and nose cap are from Cherry Corners molds, tooling, etc.

Your serial number of 1133 gives me another data point on how many rifles Ithaca made.  From what I could tell, they only produced the Hawken rifles for 18 months before they sold their black powder division to Navy Arms.

[mountainman70]

Thanks Phil; another area that catches my attention is the forend at the front of trigg plate,on the sides where it should round into the forend, both sides are a bit flat on the sides of trig plate,then blending into belly of foreend. I don't recall my previous Ithaca hawken being like this,but it aint impossible.
Have a goodun, Dave

Phil, there is another Ithaca Hawken on gunbroker barrel #1611

[iloco]

Do you have any pictures you can post here on this thread.
 I bought a new Ithacan Hawken in the late 70's.  Wish I had never sold it.

[mountainman70]

Howdie neighbor; I will get some pics tomorrow. it looks like a good ol smokepole. Got any snow over your way ? It is snowing here at this time-758 pm. have a goodun, Dave

[iloco]

Didnt get any snow last night.  Most of it was south of me in NC and Tn.

[mountainman70]

Here are some pics of Ithaca Hawken
Note the underside in front of trigguard how the wood is flat instead of rounded.

[iloco]

I think you are spot on about that rifle being built from a kit.  Wish I still had mine.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That rifle was definitely built from a parts set or kit.  And the builder wasn't particular about the details that make or break a Hawken rifle...lock panels, flat along bottom of stock, etc.

[Bob Roller]

That rifle was definitely built from a parts set or kit.  And the builder wasn't particular about the details that make or break a Hawken rifle...lock panels, flat along bottom of stock, etc.

I's a tool made to hunt with little regard to historical accuracy.
It's the type of gun that won't lose value if it gets scratched up
or a dent in the wood.A number of the Cherry Corners locks
had mainsprings that were weak and could be removed with
no tools.I once watched George Suiter do it.

Bob Roller

[smylee grouch]

The few Cherry Corners locks I had any experience with were notorious for soft tumblers and sears.

[draton2681]

I have serial # N170 Ithica. I agree with the Kit origin. It's a great gun. Mine also has "51" stamped on the bottom flat of the barrel. Not sure of the significance of that number or the N prefix on the S/N.
It's a .50 cal.

[mountainman70]

Greeting to all; I decided to take the plunge and do some trimming up of the wood.
With the kind input of you guys as to what needed,in addition to comparing with my own 62 Hawken built by Bob Walden, here are pics of what I have so far. Stil have much to do, going to do a full refinish of wood. Not  certain as to the patina of the metal, tho it could be done too.
 Suggestions welcome. Merry Christmas to you all, Seasons greetings, Happy Channuka, etc. Dave

[rich pierce]

Not sure how practical it is on a built rifle but your lock panels could be even thinner. Since you probably cannot move the trigger upwards the only way to accomplish that is by rounding the belly.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I did a screen shot of your picture showing how you have begun to reshape the lock panel(s), printed it and drawn in some suggestions.  This is definitely not the last word or the only way t approach this work, but it is what I would do.
I have drawn, as best I could, around the lock plate and your outline.  You will see that me lock panel line is between those two lines.  First you will see I have drawn a centre line through the wrist and the tail of the lock...the back end of the panel should intersect that centre line if possible.  Also, it can have a little bit of a radius rather than a point, and that will soften the effect of meeting the centre line.  Along the bottom, I have cut that part of the panel in half more or less.  The bottom of the stock should have a flat area along each side of the trigger plate about 1/8" wide, and from that point up to the lock panel, the stock is almost flat.  Don't worry about what may seem to be a lot of wood under the lock, between the bottom line of the lock panel and the flat along the trigger plate...many of the originals did as well.
Now, the forward end of the panel.  there are two approaches you can use here:  first, as in this first picture, the top of the lock plate can be beveled up to the edge that meets the barrel where it still remains parallel to the bore or the flat lines of the barrel.  If you check out the upper line of the panel behind the hammer and follow it forward through the snail of the breech, it flows right into the panel forward of the snail, albeit dropping a bit.  The other approach is to cut a quick radius in front of the lock plate as most other muzzle loading rifles are done, then finishing as I have drawn and is very similar from that point on with the first scenario.
When cutting the edges of the panel, especially at the tail end, don't be tempted to accentuate the concave edge with a rat tailed file.  Just let it flow into the wrist.  The forward end is more accentuated.  By no means cut a concave cove along the top or bottom lines of the panel.  Rather, a slight roundness or convex shape is desirable.
This particular rifle has one of the nicest shaped hammers available on modern 'copies' of Hawken rifles.  And the triggers and guard are excellent as well.




A little more description of the top lines of the lock panel...As you follow the top of the panel behind the hammer moving the eyes forward, you will notice that that top line, as its terminus, aligns with the top edge of the side flat of the barrel.  Likewise, if you follow the top edge of the lock plate behind the hammer forward through the snail, it aligns with the top line of the panel forward of the snail.  This subtle sculpting is one of the features that consciously or otherwise, endears the Hawken rifle to us.  Miss it, and you will not doing all you can to capture this rifle's grace.

[mountainman70]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I just pulled the ol feller out of closet to get back to it. Taylor, I see what you mean, and will be making the corrections. Fortunately, I left enough wood to do the mods.
After I get it to this stage, I suppose I need to make obverse look the same. The triggers are as deep as practical, the rear trig already bears on the sear to the point of needing to be set to cock. I am planning to heat the tail of sear and bend upward to get enough clearance , a little at a time. I don't have much underbelly forend wood to loose to make it slimmer. Gun has a nice feel to it.
Thanks again,my friends. Time to go to work on it. Dave 

[mountainman70]

OK, lets see how I did on Taylors instructions.
There seems to be a belly shape to the bottom of fore stock. Is this correct? Thanks Taylor and all  Dave






gif image hosting

[smylee grouch]

Before you heat up the sear, would it be possible to file a small amount off the top of the offending trigger bar enough to get the clearance you need?

[mountainman70]

Hi Smylee, these triggers have been filed down to the point of no return.I have noticed a common problem with some of the locks we use,as the sear sits way low on the plate. Seems a better way would be up from the bottom edge of plate 1/8 inch or so. Then there would be at least some room to work, maybe even  allow for a slimmer underbelly.
Have a goodun Dave

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You've done well to make the lock panel more appealing.  I can live with what you have now, and when you compare it to what you started with, there is a world of difference.  The forestock of the Hawken rifle from this era is not a slim thing like we are used to in longrifles.  It's fine the way it is.  Many of Sam's rifles had a bit of 'perch belly' in the forearm and also in the butt stock.  This rifle's manufacturer exaggerated this in the forestock just a bit, but it is fine.  The forestock on these plains rifles usually carries a much heavier ramrod than a lot of eastern rifles and there has to be enough wood to support the larger hole.
To make the obverse side as much the same as you can, take a piece of tablet backing or cereal box card stock big enough to cover the panel.  Punch a hole for the lock bolt to pass, and, having removed the lock, slide the lock bolt through the hole, place the card over the panel and hold it stationary.  then using your thumb, press down along the enges of the panel to mark the card stock with the panel's outline.  Remove it, and use a ball point pen to follow the crease, marking the panel's shape on the paper.  Then cut it out with an Xacto knife, or a pair of scissors.  Now place it on the obverse side with the lock bolt holding it in place, and trace around the edge.  Be sure, looking down from the top, that the ends of the panels on both sides are adjacent each other.  If both panels are not exactly alike, you'd be in good company, 'cause many (most) guns from this period are also like that.

[Martin S.]

Excellent thread.  I learned something from it, especially that last post.

[mountainman70]

Thanks Taylor.  I am about ready to sand the rest of finish off,and bring it to 220 or 320. This has been a learning experience for sure, and if we help others along,then so much the better. Thanks for the encouragement,keep warm up there in the Frozen North. Happy New Year to all. Dave F

[mountainman70]

Have ol gun sanded to 120. So far I am good with the progress. Did notice buttplate looked too thick on the sides,looked more like a horseshoe,so I removed plate, mounted to a 2x4 scrap, and went after it with the half round bastard file. Much happier with results. Will be better when finished filing/sanding.
I appreciate the input from you all. Have a Blessed and Pros'pous New Year. Dave F

Here are more pics. This will be all till I finish him up. 

[Martin S.]

Very nice, much improved!

Looking forward to the finished pics.

[Old Ford2]

Mountainman,.............................You have proved that you "CAN" make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Really fine looking rifle.
Thank you for posting your progress.
Happy New Year!
Fred