Flint Shotgun

[Mobyduck]

I purchased the book 'Recreating the double barrel muzzloading shotgun' by Brockway last fall. After dropping a gobbler last week with a modern shotgun, I have a strong desire to drop one with a double barrel flint shotgun. In his book, Brockway recommends finding an old damascus double barrel, proof testing it, then using the barrels for the shotgun. Other info on the web recommends never using a damascus barrel as time has weakened the welds and these barrels are a disaster waiting to happen. Anyone have any experience or advise on this subject? Appreciate any comments -

[jerrywh]

Double gun journal is the ultimate authority on Damascus barrels in my opinion. They say there are a lot of Damascus barrels that are up to shooting the smokeless powder loads. The trick is how to find the right ones.  I say find real good looking barrels and then proof them before making the gun. Your not going to get good ones cheap. I personally would pay up to $2000.00 for a top notch set of 20 gauge damascus barrels. The larger gauges are less expensive because they are more common. You can probably find a good set 12 ga. for around $200 off of a cartridge gun.  Don't try shooting smokeless in them.
   

[Scott Bumpus]

You might consider getting a set of 12ga barrels and lining them to 16ga.  If they were lined with good steel they should handle any reasonable black powder load.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

A few years ago, I was at the same stage as you.  I bought the book, and three cartridge guns before I found a pair of barrels that I really liked.  I went ahead and breeched them up following Bill's instructions.  I bought an exquisite piece of English walnut that was a full 3" thick and stocked it up using a pair of L & R's Bailes locks.  THEN I proofed it, and all went just fine.  The gun has since fired many hundreds of rounds from each barrel, and shows no sign of concern.
Since then, I have accumulated a nice stash of damascus double barrels in various gauges.  The next one I build will be a 14 bore with a nice pair of barrels from an original Staudenmayer flint gun.

[Dphariss]

I purchased the book 'Recreating the double barrel muzzloading shotgun' by Brockway last fall. After dropping a gobbler last week with a modern shotgun, I have a strong desire to drop one with a double barrel flint shotgun. In his book, Brockway recommends finding an old damascus double barrel, proof testing it, then using the barrels for the shotgun. Other info on the web recommends never using a damascus barrel as time has weakened the welds and these barrels are a disaster waiting to happen. Anyone have any experience or advise on this subject? Appreciate any comments -

The thing about "damascus" barrels is the WIDE range of quality. The good stuff, like the late English machine made damascus, will stand nitro proof and service.
Check them carefully. A whack on the right barrel can sometimes break a weld in the left.
Some American made guns, like Parkers, have very good damascus barrels. Dad shot Peters High Velocity through a 10 ga hammer Parker as a kid.
But the bargain price Belgian made stuff often had some pretty dismal steel in them.
Look them over carefully, look for internal and external pits and dents If they look OK breech and proof them. I would use the tables in Greeners "The Gun and Its Development" as a guide. I would also use Swiss powder for proof. FFG or FFFG.
Shoot a service load and then a proof load in each.
Still anyone shooting *any* old barrel does so at their own risk.  I never tell anyone an old barrel is safe.

Dan

[northmn]

There were also two types of old barrels.  The Damascus and those Damascuscened (I do not remember the correct spelling)  which were barrels finished to look Damascus.  Personally I hate to see a good old double hammer cartridge gun destroyed as I have had a lot of fun using them with BP loads and prefer them over a percussion double.  They can be a collecter in their own right.  Like Dpharsis I remember hunting with another kid that used baby mags in a Dmascus 12.  The barrels held but the lock up was kind of loose.  A nice double can be built using plain old steel also, especially for turkey use.  I built up a nice little single shot flinter using a 32" barrel off of an old single shot action with no stock.  Most older guns had very tight chokes by today's standards as they were made for non sleeved loads.  I reamed out my barrel for easier loading and so I could possibly hit something flying and it still shoots plenty tight. Constricted shoke barrels are tougher to load. The finished barrel is about 30 1/2 inches long and has a sort of a nock breech.  It needs about 50-60 grains minimum charge to fill the breech.  The breech plug is over 1" long.  Do you need a double for turkeys?  Check with Mike Brooks and look at some of his turkey specials in old time fowler in 11 gauge. 

DP 

[Mike Brooks]

I like to use old percussion barrels to use for flint guns, they have a little better profile. Cartridge barrels usually have too much flare at the breech. I have been shooting a double flint gun built ca. 1810 for a lot of years with very light damascus barrels with no problems. Of course the barrels have been completely unsoldered, checked and soldered back together. Here's a couple guns I built from old percussion barrels, both 14 bores. I prefer 16 bore or smaller as they make a more manageable gun.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/Borders%20double%20gun/
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/0703/Gunmaker/Moore%20double/

[Robby]

Beautiful job mike, both of them!! I have wanted to do this for quite some time, hard to find a set of barrels around here that aren't in pretty bad shape. Anyone have some they would part with?
Robby

[rich pierce]

Sorry, nothing to help you out but I have an old 12 ga Lefever shotgun with beautiful Damascus barrels- on the outside.  Bad pitting etc on the inside but as a kid I shot everything through Grandpa's old shotgun, including "high brass" loads and even slugs.  God protects fools sometimes.

[Dave K]

Fortunately, for those of us that love Damascus barrels, there are many unfounded stories concerning Damascus barrels. I do freguent another website, where this topic has been discussed many times and tests have been done to blow up barrels. The pressures are usually well in excess 30,000+psi levels, before they let go. Like any barrel permitted to rust up, a Damascus barrel is possibly stronger than many of the fluid steel barrels that were made in the late 1800's. Damascene barrels was an attempt to market the cheaper made fluid barrels, by making them appear to be Damascus. Damascene barrels though are extremely rare and many people including me, have never seen them, only heard of them.  Damascus barrels were made one step at a time, by hands on all the way. Very labor intensive, but very well inspected all the way, so they were expensive to make. Fluid steel barrels were much cheaper to make, as they came out of the machine. Many of these early fluid barrels had inclusions in the metal as well, as the inspections were not what they are today to expose hidden flaws in the metal. It was marketing the was the demise of Damascus barrels not their strength.  It just made marketing sense to sell a fluid steel barreled gun for the same price as a Damascus barreled gun and the fluid barrel gun was made much cheaper, so more profit.

Remember though when shooting any old gun and it old metals and wood, there is always risks. Even the old cartridge guns of the 45-70's cannot take loads that are acceptable in modern 45-70's. Early Springfield 03's had metallurgy issues that anything considered modern pressures are not recommended. These guns were all made from fluid steel.  Anytime you make an explosion in your hands that you place in front of your face, you are taking a risk.

I am shooting well over a dozen guns that have Damascus or composite steel barrels. Not saying it will make you feel safer, but I am not concerned about it for myself, with any gun that has been well examined and do not push the PSI ceiling.

[Mike Brooks]

Damascene barrels though are extremely rare and many people including me, have never seen them, only heard of them. 

DITTO. Any old barrel that looks like damascus has aways been damascus in my experience. I have never seen otherwise.

[doug]

      First to nit pick; the term for false damascus barrels is damascus pattern and they have that term stamped on the upper rib of the barrels.  They are pretty uncommon and I have only seen 2 or 3 sets out of many damascus barrels.  Damascene refers to gold inlay in the metal.

      I think in terms of weakness, you want to find a set of barrels that are at least .020" and preferrably .025" at the muzzle and if you have the ability, measure the barrel walls along their length to ensure they are not markedly thinner back from the muzzle.  You want to check for deep pits that potentially perforate the barrel and for split welds between the spirals.  Finally while ribs can be soldered back on, it is a tremendous lot of work to do so.  Pattern is in the eyes of the beholder and the tight figure eight patterns are a lot more difficult to bring out than the simple wrap around lines.  I also think that 16 guage is perhaps the best choice of guage so that the gun does not look overly wide at the breach.

     I have shot at least 15 or 20 damascus shotguns, both percussion and cartridge; hundreds of shots through a few, without problem.  In the cartridge 12 guage guns I often shoot light loads of smokeless but keep my pressures below about 7 or 8000 psi.  It is my impression that original black powder pressures are in the range of 4 - 5000 psi based on Lyman's Black Powder Manual.  The only barrel that ever burst was on the proofing shot and the barrels at the break were no more than .010" thick and rusted completely through into the void space between the barrels.
     In terms of strength, it is my understanding that at least some of the Parker shotguns used belgian barrels and I personally feel that there is nothing wrong strength wise with belgian barrels  even though the work on the locks of the gun may be pretty rough and crude. 

cheers Doug

[jerrywh]

I have bought several sets of Damascus barrels that were fake damascus. Would you like some?

[Mobyduck]

Gentlemen - Thank you for all your replys - As far as damascus goes, except for looks, would a pair of standard double barrels work just as well for a flint double? I am not really concerned that much with the look as much as the function.

Northmn: I probally don't really need a double for turkeys - A single barrel would work just as well but for some reason I always wanted a flint double and this is the excuse I feel is as good as any at this time.

Jerrywh: I may be interested in the 'look like damascus' barrels you mentioned if they are in good shape. Let me know the guage and price.

Again, thanks for all your help -

[jim meili]

Moby,  you received a lot of good info here. If you were concerned about looks a twist barrel may be more appropriate than a damascus barrel. The fine damascus patterns became more common with the advent of cartridge guns. The flint and percussion frontloaders had more the spiral twist pattern and were more often brown and white rather than black and white. However, even then they often turned shades of gray. At least most of my originals have.
I think the fake damascus barrels are hard to find because most of them were rode hard and put up wet. The pattern has simply dissolved into that nice brown that even a lot of the twist barrels have. If you find a set with clean bores you will be good to go and they will shoot black with no troubles.
Don't know if this is appropriate but here is a link to a really nice website with tons of photos of barrels and early advertising.

http://www.picturetrail.com/revdocdrew

Enjoy and good luck with your project.
Jim

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

RB...you have what I think is a collector's item - a gun of considerable value and loads of history.  If you alter it at all, kiss its value good-bye.  There are lots of double guns out there that are fun to rebuild but a Colt is not one of them.  The nipple seats on a percussion double are at a much straighter angle than the pins on a cartridge double.  I wouldn't think that your idea is feasible.
I'll send everything you need to build a very nice flint double - you send me your shotgun.

[Mike Brooks]

Good Golly! I shoot Cowboy matches with an English SXS cartidge 12 bore hammer gun that was originally made as a pinfire and converted to centerfire. Made ca. 1865 give or take a couple years. No problemo dudes. If the barrels are sound go shoot the blasted thing, damascus isn't dangerous....Cripes I'd rather shoot an old damascus barreled double than risk my life shooting one of the resent  Indian imports!

[Bill Brockway]

 Mobyduck  -

Congratulations on the turkey.  Taking one with a flintlock should double the thrill.  I got one several years ago with a William Moore 10 gauge.  Alas, it was a percussion gun, but over a hundred years old nevertheless.

I appreciate your concerns with the use of Damascus barrels .  I still have the same apprehensions, and I have been fooling with them for 30 or more years.

I grew up in the 30's and 40's, when every box of shotgun shells had a warning on the flap that read "Do not shoot in Damascus barrels," or something like that.  As a kid, I had the idea drummed into me that Damascus barrels were inherently dangerous, and I believed it. 

Today, there are a growing number of shooters who shoot low-pressure nitro loads in welded twist barrels, and the number seems to be growing.  I have not gone that far, but I have shot black powder in perhaps 20 or 30 guns (or barrels) that were built in the black powder era.  Each of these has been proof-tested by me before I shot them.  I am so anal about this that I no longer build guns for others, just for myself.  I have never had a set of welded barrels fail proof-testing, and God forbid that one shoul fail while I am holding it in front of my face.

So, I am not prepared to guarantee that anyone else's barrels will not fail.  You just proof them, examine them, and, if they look solid, with no cracked welds, or rusted pinholes, make your own decision to shoot them or not.  I have bead-blasted barrels to remove the rust under the ribs, and doing so really lets you see better what you are working with

Twice a year, at Friendship, Indiana, there is a gathering of muzzle-loading shooters, who compete in the NMLRA Spring and Fall Championship matches.  Included are perhaps 100 or 150 shotgun shooters, who fire upwards of 100 rounds a day at clay targets.  Many, if not most, of these guys are shooting antique guns with welded steel barrels.  I have never heard of a barrel blowing up.  Of course, these guns are immaculately cleaned and lubricated, and they shoot nothing but black powder.  Also, most of these guys are not big fans of hard-kicking guns, so most of them shoot modest charges of shot and powder.

Those guns by Mike Brooks are beautiful examples of the gunmakers' art.  What Mike says about the breechloader barrels flaring too much at the breech is, unfortunately, true, although I have a set of 16 gauge Elsie breech-loader barrels, which do not exhibit this swell; at least not as much as other guns do.  It may have something to do with the gauge.

Moby  -  in response to your question about using modern steel barrels; I have done that, but they don't look as nice as the twist and Damascus barrels.  Have at it, and I wish you the best of luck with your venture.

Bill

[jim meili]

Mike, you got that right. I just saw one of those the other day at a small Civil War encampment. One of the soldiers had it laying on a blanket. It was what they termed a late Brown Bess. Had BB parts on it with Enfield percussion musket lock and bolster. To make a long story short...Phew!!! No way would I touch that thing off.

[jim meili]

Bill, I shoot low pressure rounds in my shotguns. These are all original good sound American made doubles from around or before the turn of the century (1900) which I enjoy shooting. Load with PB.

One thing I do is if I am not with my usual group, who all know me and what I shoot, I will ask if anyone has any problem with what I am doing. If they do I go get a modern gun and use it. This is getting off subject so will close.
J

[Dave K]

Roundball, please relieve yourself of that family heirloom 1878 Colt and put it in my good hands.

Bill Brockway, I used your book to have a SxS flint gun built. The barrels we used were Damascus 16ga. barrels from an Ithaca Flues. I thought these barrels looked pretty good as well, concerning the breech loading flare.

I am currently shooting 7 different Damascus breech loader American made Bakers from around 1900's. I go through cases of low pressure loads a year. I load to keep under my self imposed max. of 7,000 psi. My hunting guns though are several original SxS shotguns and I have long since forgot how many shoots I have sent through them.

[LynnC]

Roundball,
If this was a breech loader forum, I tell you this.  Get hold of an old Dixie catalogue - Tells all (well enough to get you started) you ought to know bout reloading up some Black Powder shotshells.  Very easy - all home made stuff - And Go Shoot it!

Of course this is a muzzle loading forum and I didn't tell you bout anything, now did I  ? ? ? 

BTW Please don't Refinish - Maybe just a bit of gentle cleaning/oiling/sprucing up.  Bet it'll come back to life!....................................Lynn

[t.caster]

I built a flint dbl. 20 back in the mid 90s for a client, using Bill's fine book as a guide.
Back then i was able to get new steel barrels, standing breech, hooked plugs, ribs and other furniture from Ray Fortenberry in California. No not Damascus.
Does any know if Ray is still in business? I called 2 yrs. ago and his wife said he was, but he never returned my calls.

[Leprechaun]

I haven't handled it in years...took it out of the case just now to look it over again...it was definitely hunted hard for years and years...it wouldn't turn heads at a gun show table unless someone was specifically looking for such an old SxS hammer gun.
The barrels are 32", not 30...dial calipers show both muzzles at .705"

If I was going to shoot it under any circumstances I'd refinish the stock and forearm....would make for an interesting project if I could convert it to a muzzleloader.

Bill, PLEASE, before doing anything (even stock refinishing) with that Colt, go to this site http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php and consult some real double gun experts. It MAY be worth some coin and if you could sell it and replace it with something of half the value to try a conversion, why not preserve history and pocket some cash while your at it.

[T*O*F]

before doing anything (even stock refinishing) with that Colt

Since he wants to build a gun, one assumes he has the requisite skills to make a new stock and forearm.  The simple solution is to do that and retain the old parts so it can be put back to original if wanted or necessary.  Leave everything else untouched.  Best of both worlds.