Hawken Hammer location

[Herb]

I am building another kit Carson close copy using a Track of Wolf Hawken stock not inlet for lock.  A lock location problem became apparent that I have had before but did not know why. I have had trouble getting the hammer to reach to the nipple.  This means heating the hammer red hot and lifting the cup a little to stretch the reach.
I had a Davis lock cut for snail but needed another.  Muzzleloader Builder Supply and Track of Wolf both had the cut lock back ordered, so I got a Davis lock not cut for snail from MBS.  I have cut for the snail before, it is easy to do.  I located the snail cut out location by measuring the cut plate.  .380 of an inch back from the top and .326 inch below the top, just the size of a quarter (25 cent coin) and a Dremel cut off disc.  I cut it out and it fitted the snail just right.  Then, where to inlet the lock plate.  I took the lock apart and set the hammer on the nipple and marked the square hole for the tumbler shaft.




Then I set the lock plate against the snail and rotated the plate until it centered on the marked square.




They did not agree exactly, but I figured it would work.



With the lock inletted, the hammer seemed too far back.  I will not know for sure until I complete the inlet and install the lock bolt.  Then if the hammer nose hits the nipple, I have to heat and bend the hammer.


I set the Davis lock on a full sized enlargement of the Kit Carson Hawken and discovered that the hammer is too far back on the plate of the Davis lock.





When I build another Hawken, I'll get a Davis lock not inlet for snail and put that cut-out 1/2" back from the front top corner.  So if you Hawken builders have trouble getting the hammer cup to cover the nipple, this is why.

[mark brier]

Herb, you are correct. As I remember my grandfather T.K. Dawson say, "anything was grist for the mill." What Hawken originals I have personally seen along with the photos and notes of the several Hawken's he owned, many of them show the evidence and need of stretching the hammer out.
Mark Brier

[Bob Roller]

I also well remember hearing T.K say that more than one of these
had the hammer stretched to do what it was supposed to do.
Another thing is that some of these hammers are undersize from
shrinkage and poorly made moulds.Cutting and splicing in a section
works well IF the welding job is done right.Done right it's hard to
see.

Bob Roller

[P.W.Berkuta]

The plains rifle I just finished had this issue plus others . I made a new plate and it still ended up a bit off in both throw and hammer to nipple face impact angle. Had to heat and bend the hammer and mill the impact angle on the hammer nose to match the nipple angle . What a PAIN in the BUTT. I think whoever is making the hooked breaches now are different than years ago. The seat on the snail for the nipple is not at the correct angle to match up with the hammer face and it is too high.

[Clark Badgett]

Herb, I'm going to keep this post in mind (and print it for my archive) so when I get around to cutting the snail inlet in the plate, I'll keep it at a minimum like that picture of the original. Thanks for this info.

[Herb]

Today I visited Carl Walker, gunsmith from the old Green River Rifle Works , and asked him about this hammer  location problem.  He locates the hammer like I did, then uses a push-pin centering device in that square hole and sets the lock plate tumbler hole over it.  He uses uncut lock plates.  He then marks where the snail cut out needs to be on the plate and cuts the plate to fit the snail.  So the hammer hits the nipple where it should.  He said if the hammer is too far back, as mine is, then you can slot the front of the hammer cup so it will fit over the cap.  The hammer of the Bridger and Carson rifles are not slotted.  I looked at some photos of other Hawkens to see what the hammer to nipple fit is.  Below is the "Roubidoux" Hawken in the state museum in Lincoln, Nebraska.  I posted a full set of photos of this and the Cheyenne Hawken in the Antique Rifle Section about September, 2016.



A Sam Hawken  rifle in the Nelson Museum of the West in Cheyenne, WY.  A fine museum.


My copy of the Jim Bridger Hawken, Davis lock and a 1 1/8" barrel.


A Track of the Wolf Kit Carson Hawken stock.  Davis lock not cut for snail, I did that.  Don't remember why such a bum fit.  But I cured it.  I heated the hammer red and twisted it with a wrench to align with the nipple.


A TOW Kit Carson set of parts, one inch barrel.  Probably the same as the one above.


A Left Handed TOW Kit Carson set of parts.  Look at that hammer fit.  (You can enlarge the picture by holding down Control and hitting the + sign).  I wrote about this in the Gun Building forum (this one) about January  first 2016 and 2017.

[Whaleman]

Herb, This is the best tool I have found. I had to grind it a bit to work. Does not bend the primer cup. Dan

[Herb]

Whaleman, thanks for your post.  That tool should work just right.  I use a 9/16" box wrench.  For those not acquainted with bending a hammer, it has to be heated bright red.  I think I used Map gas.  I see you are in LeClaire, Iowa. I was there October 9 to 11 and rode the Riverboat Twilight up to Dubuque and back, which I also did about three years ago.  Back to the hammer- Sam Hawken had trouble, too.  See Taylor's Pistol Grip Hawken post nearby, fifth photo down.

[rich pierce]

I’d be tempted to just hammer on it. Forge to vise, just the top half orange, clamp it and tap away.

[Don Stith]

Herb
 It looks like your "full size" print of the Carson rifle might be a little undersize. Not sure what you used to scale it from
  The original lock is bigger than the Davis lock, but looks smaller in your pictures . The actual lock panel is 6 5/8 long if that helps

[Herb]

Thanks, Don, I appreciate your help.  I think I scaled this photo enlargement based on a 5.0 inch lock, and the lock panel here is 6 5/8" long.  I guess the parallax is due to the photo being farther away.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I used to struggle with this issue:  aligning the hammer cup with the nipple on Hawken builds.  I would have to stretch and bend hammers to make them 'right', but not anymore.
The following is how I go about this job.
I'm going to back up a bit first and talk about the castings that we have available in general.  First the breech plug and tang are not finished, as received, at least any that I have been able to work with to date.  The breech plug and tang has been cut for the nipple seat, and a nipple will fit, but is impossible to get a wrench on because of the excess metal in the snail.  A few layout lines and some work with a Dremel and stones will take care of that in quick order, though speed is not what you should be after.  Lots of original Hawken breeches are cut well into the plug giving ample access for cleaning and nipple work...I stopped right at the edge of the top flat's right had periphery.




While were looking at castings and how to make them better and more authentic, let's examine Davis' hammer.  I have never found images of an original Hawken rifle with a hammer of that shape...it is too voluptuous.  But again, some layout lines and work with files will give the hammer more grace, and make it more like those found on original examples.  The hammer cup on the casting is too shallow.  I ground a drill bit with a bit of taper to the tip, and a flat end to deepen the hammer cup without making the rim too thin and fragile.  One can also use the bit to change the angle of the base of the cup to strike the nipple at exactly ninety degrees.  Somewhere I have pictures of that process, and I'll try to add them if I can retrieve them.




Now that the breech and hammer suit the build, I align the lock so the hammer cup aligns with the nipple, and mark the plate for the extremities of the snail.  I use various files, mostly this 1/2" rat-tailed behemoth to hog out the plate.  Go slowly, and use transfer colour to get a perfect fit and alignment.  This is critical for success in the alignment deal.

One of the issues with Davis' lock and the breech castings commonly available, is the plate is too thick at the bolster to allow the hammer to come over to the nipple.  This causes an additional problem in that the plate sticks out from the side of the snail.  The bolster thickness on the Davis lock is thick enough to allow you to taper it, removing metal from the aft' end, so that by the time you get it flat and true, the plate moves over closer to the barrel, the snail protrudes just the right amount, and the hammer miraculously aligns with the nipple, without bending.  You also achieve that narrower after end at the wrist, and flared for'd end, common on S. Hawken rifles.  This bolster tapering is best performed AFTER the plate has been cut for the snail.  In these images, I've simply set the lock alongside the barrel, and the mainspring pressure holds everything where it will end up on the rifle...perfect alignment, and no angst getting there.







..hammer down, and hammer at half bent...










Now, it is a simple matter of inletting the lock so that the plate fits tightly against the snail, and you know all is going to be in alignment.






upload photograph

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I just reviewed this whole thread, and I can see one major difference in the way Herb and I have approached this issue.  I have aligned the lock to the snail OUT OF the wood, and Herb has tried to do so with the barrel and breech in the stock.  That's the way I too used to try to do this job, but it's where I ran into trouble.

[Herb]

Taylor, thanks very much for these fine photos and the how-to.  You are a huge help to all of us builders!   I've built 25 or 30 Hawkens and made all the locks work, but don't remember what the hammer problems were.  I have cut maybe a half dozen plates for the snail but don't remember how I fitted them.  My problem on this build was that I copied the Davis cut-out, and it is wrong!  For those who don't know what an uncut plate is, here is one shown at the bottom.  The top is the Davis lock cut for snail.  I located the snail cut-out by measurement and cut the bottom plate to match, which it does perfectly.  I hacksaw inside the lines down to the mark and then use a coarse rattail file to remove most of the metal.  The heavy duty Dremel cut-off wheel is exactly the right diameter to smooth the cut out.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks Herb.  I've never used a lockplate that was cut for the snail...always cut them myself.  When I made Hawken rifles for Don Robinson's shop back in the late 70's and early 80's we used L & R's locks...actually assembled them ourselves, so all the plates were un-cut.  That's where I gained the experience and confidence to "have at it" with rasp and saw.
You build a fine Hawken Herb, so keep on keeping on, as my Aunt used to say.

[adam h]

I have to file the slot In my lock and inlet the lock in the stock. this is good Information to know.
I thank you both

[P.W.Berkuta]

Both Herb and Taylor do fine work on Hawkens and these pictures along with the words are just great. I've built 12+ of these type of rifles and all of them had hammer issues. Now I will refer to this post on my next build - thanks to both of you for your dedication and input .

[Scota4570]

My first attempt with stock and lock provided in a kit ended in disaster.  I ended up starting again with a new lock and stock.  I gave up on pre-carves and made the stock from scratch.  It was a cryin' shame to trash both the lock and stock.  Expensive too!

[snrub47]

My first Hawkenish build. Notched the lock for the snail and the hammer aligned with the nipple good and then time to inlet lock I decided to drop the tail of the lock about a 32nd and guess what, hammer hit the snail. Red heat and a couple of adjustment and it now is centered north south east and west....all these Hawken topics have been a big help, Thanks, Taylor, Herb, etc....

[Herb]

I appreciate the comments of problems with the Hawken hammer locations. Thanks.

[RL]

I had the same alignment problem although I stated from a blank, un notched Davis lock and a JB hammer. No one to blame but myself. I was at the point of sawing and welding the hammer back together. I noticed the Blickensdorfer
Scheutzen hammer has a .020 longer throw. Since I didn't really like the looks of the JB hammer  I ordered the Scheutzen hammer. It did improve the alignment. I had to do some filing on the inside of the hammer to provide clearance for the stock.

[Herb]

On that left hand Davis lock, Bob was out here again on New Years for our annual shoot.  He used the left-handed walnut stocked Hawken I built for him about 20 years ago and I used my .50 fullstock caplock antelope rifle.  We did right well.  We worked on his TOW left-handed Kit Carson rifle again (for the third New Years session).  Got the barrel draw filed and sanded and browned after cutting a rear sight slot, and I made a taller Kit Carson style (TOW) sight.  That sight is so low that the front sight has to be cut down too much for my eye.   He shaped the stock by rasping it down and filing.   And the reason the hammer fits the nipple so well is that I cut the plate for the snail.  He cut this dovetail.

I also did a lot of work on a Kit Carson Hawken I am making, using Track's Hawken halfstock not inlet for lock, and a 1" barrel.  This stock and plug and tang work well.  Here is my rifle at top and Bob's below.  We had to cut that 14 1/2" LOP down for him and his 36" sleeve (arm) length.  I wrote about this here in January, 2016 with details of what we did then.  There are some serious problems with Hawken parts that take a lot of work to correct.  I tried to heat my trigger guard to bend it to correct shape, heated bright orange with Mapps gas, and still could not bend it.  (Bob checked Mapps gas on the web and found that it is only 50 degrees hotter that propane, unless used with oxygen, when it is 400 degrees hotter).  A friend with air-acetylene will bend it for me.  Also, one trigger guard had a casting flaw  (crack) and he'll have to TIG weld that.  That will go on my next copy of the Jim Bridger Hawken.

Notice the longer wrist on the TOW Kit Carson stock (bottom).  We had to cut the stock off and the cheek piece is too close to the buttplate.  The buttplate is not what the Carson rifle has.  I took about 150 digital pictures of the building process and someday will be able to do a tutorial on the subject.  There sure is a lot to know to do it right, to make parts work and look good.

[Bob Roller]

Here is a simple,bonehead method of aligning the nipple/bolster on any
rifle that uses this. Make a simple tool with the diameter of the hole in the
plate and with a smaller diameter to barely allow the square hole in the
hammer to fit over it.Take the lock apart and insert the tool thru the plate
and place the hammer on the small diameter and align it with the nipple
and mark the plate with a small tip Magic Marker.
I used this method on several bolster breeches and it works and eliminates
all Guess work.
Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Here is a simple,bonehead method of aligning the nipple/bolster on any
rifle that uses this. Make a simple tool with the diameter of the hole in the
plate and with a smaller diameter to barely allow the square hole in the
hammer to fit over it.Take the lock apart and insert the tool thru the plate
and place the hammer on the small diameter and align it with the nipple
and mark the plate with a small tip Magic Marker.
I used this method on several bolster breeches and it works and eliminates
all Guess work.
Bob Roller

A follow up to my last post. I have a few Davis Hawken hammers and if I
decide to to use them,the lock I have in mind would look like the Davis
lock but internally similar to the English Lang sporting rifle Taylor showed
a while back. The bridle on 3 posts and the sear on a precise axle.
This idea is not new to me and I used it on a long run of German style
Schuetzen locks in the past. I was thinking of a $200 bench crafted lock.
The Schuetzen was $250. This is just an inquiry to see IF there is any
interest or need for an upgraded Hawken lock.

Bob Roller

[rtp]

Yess!!!    Picked up a Bill Large barrel recently...would love to have the 3 pin to go with it
Roger