Author Topic: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?  (Read 4930 times)

Offline Justin

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Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« on: December 13, 2017, 10:55:53 PM »
In Recreating the American Longrifle, the authors mention that the brass cap on the ramrod may be the same length as the nose cap so when the ramrod is installed, the edges of the brass on both pieces lines up.

Seems like a small detail but would make the rifle look a little more sharp / detailed. However, they don't really go so far as to say it "should" be done this way -- they just say it might be.

What do other folks do? If you put a brass cap on your ramrod, do you make sure the length of it matches the nose cap?

Here is an example I found on Google:

Offline P.Bigham

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2017, 11:04:41 PM »
I put a tip on the other end. Only wood shows on tip
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Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2017, 11:08:29 PM »
Here is what I think -- it is fine if you are OCD for me I make them anywhere between 1" and 1.5" depending on how it looks and how much scrap brass I have laying around ;D ;).
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline Justin

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2017, 11:36:46 PM »
I ask because I bought a pre-made cap from Track of the Wolf and I would need to cut it down just a bit to get the length to match. I should just do it because if I am lazy and don't, it'll bug me forever...

Doc

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 11:42:31 PM »
I think you just ansered your own question.  I would rather spend a bit more time making it the way I want the first time, than looking at it and wishing I had done differently later.  Personally I really like the look of what you pictured.

Doc

Offline Robby

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2017, 11:42:41 PM »
I do as Mr. Bigham, the brass is nested behind the lock. I usually taper my rods and brass is 5/16, with the other end slightly oversize tapering to the first pipe.
Robby
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2017, 12:23:00 AM »
Justin,
If you want to have the brass ramrod tip on the muzzle end of your rifle, then by all means do it.  If that is the way you want to go, then I would make the ramrod tip the same length as the muzzle cap.  It definitely will look more pleasing to the eye. 
David

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2017, 01:23:25 AM »
 I can't say it's historically correct but ideally the ram rod tip should match the nose cap and the same length as the RR thimbles.
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 01:53:40 AM »
Or....you can just put the brass or iron tip on the other end  ;)   which is my standard practice for my tapered rods

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 03:24:52 AM »
I push the ball/patch down with the small end of the rod, using the larger end to push with my hand in the final seating.  I don't put a rod tip on the out-end of the rod.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 03:31:44 AM »
I put my metallic end on the "down side" of the ram rod. If I was going to put it on the "upside" I'd make it at least 12" long....maybe more. ;)
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draton2681

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 06:24:01 AM »
Longer makes it easier to grip and remove and leaves a little more grab room when swabbing the bore but also leaves an invitation to snag and break the ramrod. Pros and cons to both.

Offline blienemann

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2017, 06:42:47 AM »
Hi Justin, and it's good to see you building rifles and asking questions as you go along.  Your post here says "what do other folks do?", and if you're asking what do other contemp stockers do, this is a good place to ask.  If you want to know what the old gunstockers did, that's a different question - though some who post here are students of the old guns and guys as well.

IF interested in history, you need to narrow the place and time.  And look for rifles in such good shape that the ramrods are or might be original.  That really narrows the field of study pieces.

I began with mtn man rifles - Carson Hawken in current Muzzle Blasts ca 1850 has a heavy tapered ramrod, a brass wrap or cap at muzzle end scooped to fit the ball, and tapered iron tip at breech end to take a worm.  I have seen a few fur trade Henry rifles and others with brass loops at muzzle end to strengthen the loading end.  Most Lemans and similar had the tapered iron tip at breech end, threaded for worm , now a jag.  If there was a wrap at muzzle end, it looks like they tried to use the same material as forend and same length for a good look.  There are plenty that are just wood at the muzzle end, but bore sized and scooped to fit ball.  On a contemp mtn man rifle I'd sometimes use both, tap one 8x32 and other 10x32 so whatever you grabbed would work somewhere (probably not traditional).  Or I would copy the custom size and thread of the old rifle - usually larger and stronger.

Then many long guns 1770 to 1800 seem most often to have a tip at breech end and plain wood at muzzle.  So i had to relearn, leave off the showy brass under forend cap.  But not always = some makers used a brass loop at muzzle, and varied length of ramrod pipes, etc.  Lots of details vary from maker to maker and over time.

Then when I got back to earlier records, the Bethlehem, PA shop repairs during 1750's often included putting brass loops on the loading end of the ramrods.   OK - back to that again.  Several Oerter rifles in near new condition and the griffin rifle all have brass loops or closed caps at the muzzle, usually same length as forend cap.  Sometimes the tapered iron tip at breech end has broken off at cross pin, ramrod is shoved down and doesn't match - but did when new.

Going back a step or two earlier to German rifles, most had a horn forend cap and a horn tip on ramrod of same length.  Sometimes same material, sometimes black and yellow mixed, but both there, so that may have been the tradition the early guys copied here.

To me, any of these questions have many answers, depending upon who, where and when.  Re your patchbox question, there are historical examples of short, square, stubby pbox lids, wide and low, skinny and high - depends on what you are trying for.  And we all have our own eye for what looks good that day.

keep on learning, and share back with us what you see.  Bob


Offline Justin

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2017, 06:08:50 PM »
Thanks folks. Bob, special thanks to you for the historical references.

I am building an Isaac Haines rifle that supposed to be 1770-1780 era (according to the Chambers family which is where I bought my kit). My original intent for building the rifle was more to simply have a nice flintlock I could use for hunting but as I got into the process more, I would like to stick to the original styles. With that said, I am still interested in utility so as long as it's not ridiculous, I may opt for something more utilitarian. I think the ramrod tips are perhaps one of those places based on your post. I decided to put a 3/8" brass cap on the muzzle end and a 5/16" brass cap on the breach end and both are threaded differently.

Also, I did end up cutting the muzzle end so the length matches the nose cap since I figured it made for a cleaner appearance.

Thanks again!

Offline David Price

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2017, 04:25:02 AM »
Juston,

I always match the length of the noise cap with the rod tip.  I am a contemporary  builder so I am not so concerned about what the gun builders of old did.  Most of the original rods have disappeared any way.
I love what you did on your rifle, the design looks similar to what Jerry Huddleston does.  I would like to see the rest of the rifle.

David Price

Offline t.caster

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2017, 05:50:51 PM »
I like the tip the same length as the nose cap. I make them with a tip on the "down" end if customer wants it hidden. In fact, I just reversed the rod on the .54 Beck I have for sale here. It is a good idea to have two rods for your rifle anyway in case of breakage.
Tom C.

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2017, 07:39:43 PM »
I had never thought about the ramrod tip length until the great Dave Crisalli made me a ramrod with fitting for the Gunner's Mate he made for me.  He asked for the dimensions, and matched the tip to my rifle.  Now that I have seen that, anything else looks a little "off".  No offense to anyone who likes it different than that though.  God Bless, and Best Wishes,  Marc




Offline Justin

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2017, 07:48:33 PM »
Juston,

I always match the length of the noise cap with the rod tip.  I am a contemporary  builder so I am not so concerned about what the gun builders of old did.  Most of the original rods have disappeared any way.
I love what you did on your rifle, the design looks similar to what Jerry Huddleston does.  I would like to see the rest of the rifle.

David Price

Hey David, that picture I posted was just something I found -- that's not mine, unfortunately :D

This is mine:



Offline Justin

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Re: Brass Ramrod Tip - Should length match the nose cap?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2017, 07:52:01 PM »
This is the rest of my rifle as of a few days ago: