Just A Run of A Mill English Fowler?

[OldSouthRelics]

Gentlemen,

If I may, I'd like ask for your assistance and opinions regarding this rifle. It's a musket a friend of mine has had all of his life, and his father owned, and he just recently sold it to me. I think it is just a very well cut down English Fowler, but I can't find any proof marks on the barrel. It very well could have always been half stock, but this musket has me very confused because of the lack of proof marks and obvious traits that I've seen before on other antique English fowlers.

Here are some of the things I've noticed:

There are no visible proof marks on the octagon to round barrel.
It possess a rather interesting site, certainly making me think the initial purpose was non-military.
The side plate is simple, yet probably identifiable to a more trained eye.
The wood ramrod is swelled, and contains a metal threaded end.
The buttplate is similar to some English Fowlers I've owned.

Overall Length: 55 3/4''
Barrel Length: 42 1/4''

Any help would be most appreciated.

[Mike Brooks]

Very late and probably Belgian.

[Feltwad]

Very late and probably Belgian.

I agree  it is not English Built from parts
Feltwad

[Seth Isaacson]

If it is Belgian, you should find an oval "EL/G" proof somewhere on the barrel. The Belgians were making black powder guns into the early 20th century for trade with underdeveloped countries.

[n stephenson]

Neat piece! Nice stock wood. I like that cheekpiece!   Thanks Nate

[OldSouthRelics]

Thank you Gents. If I may, I'll ask some more questions, as this musket has perplexed me.

Mike Brooks - What makes you think it's Belgian, and additionally what makes you think it is a later piece?

Feltwad - Thank you sir.

The Rambling Historian - Thank you for a picture of the proofs! I have been lucky to own several Belgian pieces in the past, and currently, and I am aware of their proof marks. The lack of visible proof marks is actually why I asked.

Nate - Thank you, I very much like the wood as well! The cheekpiece I could live without, but it is handsomely done.

My lack of experience with European Fowlers, or non-military muskets/rifles is also probably contributing to my failure of being able to identify it. I have owned Ketland's, and Jaeger's but that is about it. The cheekpiece seems very European to me, so Belgian is absolutely believable. I'll do some research and see fi I can find any common characteristics, now that I have a more specific area to look.

Anymore additional information, for the sake of my quest of knowledge, would be greatly appreciated.

[Mike Brooks]

Thank you Gents. If I may, I'll ask some more questions, as this musket has perplexed me.

Mike Brooks - What makes you think it's Belgian, and additionally what makes you think it is a later piece?

Feltwad - Thank you sir.

The Rambling Historian - Thank you for a picture of the proofs! I have been lucky to own several Belgian pieces in the past, and currently, and I am aware of their proof marks. The lack of visible proof marks is actually why I asked.

Nate - Thank you, I very much like the wood as well! The cheekpiece I could live without, but it is handsomely done.

My lack of experience with European Fowlers, or non-military muskets/rifles is also probably contributing to my failure of being able to identify it. I have owned Ketland's, and Jaeger's but that is about it. The cheekpiece seems very European to me, so Belgian is absolutely believable. I'll do some research and see fi I can find any common characteristics, now that I have a more specific area to look.

Anymore additional information, for the sake of my quest of knowledge, would be greatly appreciated.

This is a fowling gun, not a musket. Lack of any king of design on the trigger guard finials, the treatment on the end of the forestock, the single screw from the underside of the forestock holding the barrel on, the overall poor construction quality and the poor quality of the engraving all point to VERY late construction and being Belgian. It could possibly be post 1900...maybe even French...but I'd bet on Belgian. I have come across a few Belgian guns with out proofs, VERY few, but they do exist. Proofs may be on the underside of the barrel.

[Feltwad]

The Belgian gun trade were very good at copy  shotguns and military guns of other countries  guns for the export trade  especially English and using English gun makers names
Feltwad

[n stephenson]

I don`t want to get into modern guns here, but I`ve seen Belgian shotguns marked  W Richards . They DID a lot of copy catting!

[OldSouthRelics]

Mike, If I may,

Thank you. I was quite sure it was a fowling piece, the other details not so much. I'd have to be in agreement with you regarding the workmanship of most Belgium antique firearms (Floberts, The Many Copies, Potsdams etc.), so I can understand completely why you would suspect Belgium because of the lack of quality.

The proofs very well may be on the underside of the barrel. The screws don't exactly look strong, so I may just go with the assumption of late Belgian, because there is substantial evidence to prove the fact.

Thank you for mentioning that Nate, and Feltwad. I'll have to start looking more closely for the lack of quality that is indicative of Belgian firearms.

[GrampaJack]

Lest we forget, welcome to the forum and thanks for posting.  And you "may" post any time. As you can see it is what the forum is all about and (as usual) the guys did a great job.  Best Regards, Jack

[OldSouthRelics]

Thank you Jack.

Regards,

Bob

[ddoyle]

I'll have to start looking more closely for the lack of quality that is indicative of Belgian firearms.

Some guns from Belgium were made to match a low price point- Belgian gun makers were so good at thier trade that they could provide a Safe- Reliable arm at a price few could compete with.  Do not make the mistake of dismissing something because it has belgian prooofs and a few file marks.    If modern north american manufacturers/importers of firearms had the track record of the Belgian cottage and factory trade alot of lawyers would be out of bussiness. 

Modern Belgian/French guns for Trade are pretty neat and I think deserve more respect/interest.  A trade musket for deepest darkest africa probabley has as cool a story to tell as a musket destined for the western shore of Hudsons Bay?   

In europe there is a pretty steady buying and selling of old and not so old trade muskets. 

[OldSouthRelics]

Some guns from Belgium were made to match a low price point- Belgian gun makers were so good at thier trade that they could provide a Safe- Reliable arm at a price few could compete with.  Do not make the mistake of dismissing something because it has belgian prooofs and a few file marks.    If modern north american manufacturers/importers of firearms had the track record of the Belgian cottage and factory trade alot of lawyers would be out of bussiness. 

Modern Belgian/French guns for Trade are pretty neat and I think deserve more respect/interest.  A trade musket for deepest darkest africa probabley has as cool a story to tell as a musket destined for the western shore of Hudsons Bay?   

In europe there is a pretty steady buying and selling of old and not so old trade muskets.

Very good point. I certainly won't dismiss them completely. I will be honest, I actually like the wood a lot on this fowler very much... It serves its purpose quite well in my opinion.

[Feltwad]

Yes there were some fine arms made in Belgium but those  for the export market were  not in the same class .You will find on their first class sporting percussion guns these were better made ,they used better walnut wood good Damascus  barrels and one notable feature on this type was the top and bottom ribs instead of soldered on a large majority were brazed .I have restored several of this type of sporting gun
Feltwad
SXS Belgium

[OldSouthRelics]

Yes there were some fine arms made in Belgium but those  for the export market were  not in the same class .You will find on their first class sporting percussion guns these were better made ,they used better walnut wood good Damascus  barrels and one notable feature on this type was the top and bottom ribs instead of soldered on a large majority were brazed .I have restored several of this type of sporting gun
Feltwad
SXS Belgium

The walnut stock is absolutely stunning, and I really like how the trigger guard meets the stock towards the butt. Thank you for sharing such a fine Belgian piece Feltwad.

[Mike Brooks]

Looks like birdseye maple to me. I have seen that on British guns but don't recall it on Belgian guns. Nice gun.

[Feltwad]

Looks like birdseye maple to me. I have seen that on British guns but don't recall it on Belgian guns. Nice gun.

I agree it does look like birds eye maple but it is burr walnut which some did come from the Baltic regions I have seen  it on guns made in Tula .
Feltwad