Unsigned Percussion

[OldSouthRelics]

Here is an interesting unsigned percussion that I know nothing about. Does anything appear indicative to a particular region or person to you gentlemen?

It has one of the thickest buttstocks I have ever encountered, and contains a button for the patchbox. There seems to be a consistent design on the ramrod pipe, buttplate, and trigger guard. The patchbox finial matches the design on the toe plate.

[rich pierce]

It looks Berks County to me based on shape and patchbox which is Reading in style.  Not sure whether it was built using old parts from an earlier gun or is just an early gun, but I get that feeling from the buttplate which should have much more curvature and be narrower. The lower buttstock molding is an earlier feature as well, and the lock was made as a flintlock and could have been converted before or after being installed on the rifle.  I’d not be surprised if it was originally fullstock, in fact it would be odd, given the other traits, if it wasn’t.  A very interesting gun.  What caliber?  Smooth or rifled?

It has weird pitch.  I’d not find that comfortable to shoot. 

[OldSouthRelics]

Mr. Pierce,

Thank you, and yes, it looks like it would be flat out painful to shoot this musket.

It is smooth bore, and I'll have to measure the caliber. I did have a quick look at the muzzle, and noticed there is an interesting triangular shaped piece of brass at the end, where bottom flat meets the circular barrel. I'll take a photograph when I measure the caliber.

The exact same questions came to my mind. I see the lock has been filled where the holes were put for the flintlock mechanisms, but it's hard to tell if it ever used as such.

My personal opinion is that it was probably full stock, because the relief is abruptly cut off by the German silver nose cap, and like you mentioned, given the other traits, it would definitely be odd if it wasn't.

I'm very much a student of antique firearms, especially early long arms, but I have a simple hypothesis. Could it be that this musket was originally full stock, and flintlock but when the popularity of half-stock, lighter weight arms came about, it was shortened by a period smith and altered to percussion?

It is interesting, and mysterious to me because of the many questions it brings to mind, and the few answers I can come up with.

Regards,

Bob

[rich pierce]

Yes.  I agree with your best guess.

[Mike Brooks]

Not picking on you, but this is not a musket. A musket generally is a military piece.

[OldSouthRelics]

Thanks Mike. You are correct. I appreciate you correcting a bad habit.

[Tanselman]

The gun appears to probably have been an original percussion to me, based on the single lock bolt on an eastern PA rifle...yet details of the gun look much older. One detail I am uncomfortable with is the lack of wood erosion immediately behind the barrel breech on a percussion rifle, as well as the lack of erosion in the barrel iron around the percussion nipple/side lug. The edges of the inletting around the lock plate is very crisp for an old rifle as well. Would it be possible to see a picture of the inside of the patchbox, to get a better feel for this rifle? Thanks, Shelby Gallien

[OldSouthRelics]

The gun appears to probably have been an original percussion to me, based on the single lock bolt on an eastern PA rifle...yet details of the gun look much older. One detail I am uncomfortable with is the lack of wood erosion immediately behind the barrel breech on a percussion rifle, as well as the lack of erosion in the barrel iron around the percussion nipple/side lug. The edges of the inletting around the lock plate is very crisp for an old rifle as well. Would it be possible to see a picture of the inside of the patchbox, to get a better feel for this rifle? Thanks, Shelby Gallien

Mr. Gallien,

Thank you for taking a moment of your time and offering your opinion. I completely understand why you are uncomfortable with the lack of wood erosion behind the breech, and the lack of erosion near the nipple. If it saw any kind of use, and black powder was used, there should be peppering of the metal, at the very least, in those areas...

I also agree the lock plate's edges are very crisp for a gun potentially as old as this one.

I'm hoping both of those facts just to point to it being in excellent condition and nearly unfired, rather than the alternative.

I'll get a picture of the inside of the patchbox within the next few days, along with the caliber, and picture of the muzzle. Initially, when I inspected the patchbox, it appeared to be consistent with the potential older age of the gun.

Regards,

Bob

[Brent English]

The gun appears to probably have been an original percussion to me, based on the single lock bolt on an eastern PA rifle...yet details of the gun look much older. One detail I am uncomfortable with is the lack of wood erosion immediately behind the barrel breech on a percussion rifle, as well as the lack of erosion in the barrel iron around the percussion nipple/side lug. The edges of the inletting around the lock plate is very crisp for an old rifle as well. Would it be possible to see a picture of the inside of the patchbox, to get a better feel for this rifle? Thanks, Shelby Gallien

In regards to the gun's very good condition, I think the gun just wasn't used much.  Late flints often only had one lock screw.  I agree with others, likely originally a flint and likely originally a full stock.  One thing you might look for to determine if it was originally a full stock: Examine where the underib connects to the bottom of the barrel and see if there is any evidence of dovetails cut for barrel lugs that would have been used to attach the full stock.  Very nice gun, BTW, thanks for sharing.   

[JCKelly]

With respect to the rifle originally being flint or perc, in a flintlock there would be some wood cut out behind the cock. Flint cocks butted up against/were stopped by the lockplate, percussion by the nipple. I cannot tell by the photos given.

[smart dog]

Hi Guys,
It is clear on my screen at least that there are filled holes for the frizzen spring and frizzen. 

dave

[rich pierce]

Hi Guys,
It is clear on my screen at least that there are filled holes for the frizzen spring and frizzen. 

dave

And a remnant of the fence.
Still, could have been converted before or after the gun was stocked.

[OldSouthRelics]

With respect to the rifle originally being flint or perc, in a flintlock there would be some wood cut out behind the cock. Flint cocks butted up against/were stopped by the lockplate, percussion by the nipple. I cannot tell by the photos given.

The usual wear one would see from a flintlock action is not present. Initially, I looked for that wear when inspecting it and did not notice any significant signs of use. That is another reason why this gun was causing some confusion for me.  I'll try to get a photograph of that area as well when I get a spare moment.

[Longknife]

Old South, Look at the stock behind the hammer. If built as a flintlock the wood will be grooved to allow clearance for the back of the hammer to rest on the plate. If it was built as a percussion there will be no groove......Ed

[OldSouthRelics]

Old South, Look at the stock behind the hammer. If built as a flintlock the wood will be grooved to allow clearance for the back of the hammer to rest on the plate. If it was built as a percussion there will be no groove......Ed

Ed,

Thank you sir. I'll have a look shortly I think. It's a nice day out... I may bring it out again for more pictures and to inspect it some more in the sunlight.

Regards,

Bob

[smokinbuck]

I would have to go with a flint to percussion conversion and then restock. Looking at the lock you can definitely see two plugged holes and the remnants of the fence removal, beveled edges around the drum. Further, the nipple is in very bad alignment with the hammer.
Mark

[WadePatton]

... It's a nice day out... I may bring it out again for more pictures and to inspect it some more in the sunlight.

Regards,

Bob

Please don't take photographs in direct sunlight. This creates glare and harsh shadows and tends to wash out details and colors. A bit of shade, near the direct sunlight, is where I'd attempt outdoor/natural light photography. 

Also, very early or late in the day gives much warmer tones to whatever subject being shot with natural lighting. I take advantage of that every chance I get.

I do enjoy and learn from the pics of every original I cannot get my grubby paws onto. Thanks for sharing.

[OldSouthRelics]

... It's a nice day out... I may bring it out again for more pictures and to inspect it some more in the sunlight.

Regards,

Bob

Please don't take photographs in direct sunlight. This creates glare and harsh shadows and tends to wash out details and colors. A bit of shade, near the direct sunlight, is where I'd attempt outdoor/natural light photography. 

Also, very early or late in the day gives much warmer tones to whatever subject being shot with natural lighting. I take advantage of that every chance I get.

I do enjoy and learn from the pics of every original I cannot get my grubby paws onto. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you sir for the advice. I have heard the same in the past, and try to do my best when photographing to be in sunlight, but not directly.

There are some sunny and warm days forecasted in the near future, I'll be sure to update the post with more pictures when I get the opportunity.

You're most welcome. I am most thankful for all the help, and opinions regarding this interesting piece. It still perplexes me, but I feel much more knowledgable about it than I did initially.

Mark,

Thank you for taking a moment, studying the pictures, and giving me your assessment. I find your hypothesis just as likely.

Regards,

Bob

[OldSouthRelics]

Here are some pictures of behind the hammer, the end of the barrel, and the inside of the patchbox. If there is anything else that could be photographed to give anybody a better feel for the gun, feel free to ask.

Currently I feel like it was originally full stock, and the lock was originally flint. The other specifics I don't feel comfortable speculating about with my current level of knowledge, which is fairly little. I can't rule out the possibility of many of the suggestions members have made, and could absolutely be wrong in my two assumptions.

With the new pictures, are there any new assessments you gentleman can make? This piece has me going back and forth....