Author Topic: Late production NW trade guns. (Read 10662 times)

Justin Urbantas · « **on:** December 18, 2017, 08:05:47 AM »

Does anybody have info or pictures of late production flintlock NW trade guns?
This one I got to handle is stamped 1867 on the lock. I heard somewhere that Hudson's Bay company sold them into the 1950s. I would like to see any newer ones. What is the latest one you folks have seen? It is pretty neat to know they were still made and used well into the cartridge gun era.

It's crazy to think that this gun was built in 1867. A year after the Winchester 1866 yellowboy.

Here are a few more pics

Hudnut · « **Reply #1 on:** December 18, 2017, 03:44:29 PM »

Flintlock NW guns were made for the HBC into the 1870s. Same pattern as the one you show.
They were replaced by percussion guns using Enfield style locks and barrel breeches. These seem to have been out of production shortly after 1900.
NW guns faded, conventional single shot and double smoothbores becoming more popular, serving the same purpose. Often same bore size as NW guns, for shooting ball. ML guns were still being made for the HBC into the '30s. There are reports that there were still some unsold NW pattern guns in the Winnipeg warehouse at that time.
Flintlock trade gun production for the African trade continued well into the 2oth century.

Brent English · « **Reply #2 on:** December 18, 2017, 04:44:42 PM »

I highly recommend this book: http://www.furtrade.org/store/books/Weaponry?product_id=124

Expensive, but exhaustive. Great photos and just about everything you'd ever want to know. For anyone with the least interest in the fur trade and the guns involved, the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, Nebraska is the place to go. Over 200 trade guns on display.

Seth Isaacson · « **Reply #3 on:** December 18, 2017, 05:12:35 PM »

I've seen a few dating to the mid-1870s and at least one dated 1900. They stuck around a long time.

Justin Urbantas · « **Reply #4 on:** December 18, 2017, 07:05:27 PM »

Quote from: Brent English on December 18, 2017, 04:44:42 PM

I highly recommend this book: http://www.furtrade.org/store/books/Weaponry?product_id=124

Expensive, but exhaustive. Great photos and just about everything you'd ever want to know. For anyone with the least interest in the fur trade and the guns involved, the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, Nebraska is the place to go. Over 200 trade guns on display.

Well that looks like a book I'll have to pick up if I have some extra cash one day. Good, now I finally have a reason to go to Nebraska.

lexington1 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 18, 2017, 09:15:03 PM »

Hey thanks for reminding me about this book! I was going to get a copy when they first came out but forgot about it. Mines on order.

Hudnut · « **Reply #6 on:** December 18, 2017, 11:39:06 PM »

Just received my copy. I thought I knew something about trade guns. Ha!
Get Gooding's book on HBC guns, as well.

Speaking of later trade guns, one of my projects is a late percussion gun, with Enfield style breech. Fitted a Parker Hale Enfield breech to a North Star barrel. Altered a serpent to work with an Enfield type lock.

Brent English · « **Reply #7 on:** December 19, 2017, 01:30:21 AM »

Well that looks like a book I'll have to pick up if I have some extra cash one day. Good, now I finally have a reason to go to Nebraska.
[/quote]

I think Nebraska gets a bad rap sometimes. The northwest part of the state is very scenic, lots of history for folks like us and relatively uncrowded even in the peak of summer tourist season. The Museum of the Fur Trade isn't big, but it's an amazing collection. Some very historic arms there too, owned by figures like Sitting Bull and Red Cloud.

Really like that original NW Trade Gun pictured above. Would love to own one like it someday.

Hudnut · « **Reply #8 on:** December 19, 2017, 02:38:10 AM »

The percussion double is a HBC Imperial Extra Special, a long barrelled small bore gun. Post 1895, could be well into the 20th century.

Standard HBC NW gun, converted to percussion. 36" barrel.

Parts for my late percussion project.

Steve Collward · « **Reply #9 on:** December 19, 2017, 03:08:18 AM »

One other very good book to consider is Ryan R. Gale's "For Trade and Treaty". Excellent color photos with measurements of the guns illustrated.

Justin Urbantas · « **Reply #10 on:** December 19, 2017, 06:30:33 AM »

Quote from: Steve Collward on December 19, 2017, 03:08:18 AM

One other very good book to consider is Ryan R. Gale's "For Trade and Treaty". Excellent color photos with measurements of the guns illustrated.

Thanks for the tips guys. How many guns do you think are in Gale's book?

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #11 on:** December 19, 2017, 07:35:27 AM »

Thank you for sharing the pictures and the book recommendations regarding these guns. How many trade guns do you think were manufactured and are they more prevalent in the North and the West of the country? I've actually never encountered one, that I recall, here in the South. There is a good possibility I overlooked one at a gun show, antique show, etc., but they certainly aren't a regular sight for me.

Hudnut · « **Reply #12 on:** December 19, 2017, 02:43:40 PM »

A lot of guns were made for the Indian trade. The trade was in all parts of North America. Hudson's Bay watershed, Great Lakes watershed, the Southeast, Pacific Northwest, Mississippi valley, west to the Shining Mountains.
Gooding estimates that the survival rate of pre-1800 trade guns to be 1/10 of 1%; perhaps 1% thereafter. The survival rate for guns in original, intact condition is even lower. The 1867 dated one in this thread is superior; the 1857 one I show is more typical.
Of the thousands of guns the HBC traded into the Hudson's Bay basin, 1670 to 1710, there is not one surviving intact specimen. According to Hansen, there may be one surviving 17th century Dutch trade gun.
There is quite a bit of information about numbers ordered for the trade in Hansen and Gooding.
Where I grew up in SW Ontario, the NW guns one would see weren't actual fur trade guns; they looked the part, but had the King's Mark, and had been supplied to HM's Indian Allies during the 1812 unpleasantness and thereafter.

Brent English · « **Reply #13 on:** December 19, 2017, 04:33:10 PM »

Agree with Hudnut they are extremely rare to find in original condition. I have two, but both are relics. The first is a barn find Belgian production one (beech stock, etc.) that is missing the lock and side plate with shortened stock I picked up at a farm auction, of all places. The second is a later percussion one, Enfield style lock, that is also missing its lock and sideplate. I think it may have been a Barnett. Got it off a trade blanket at a rendezvous. That one is heavily weathered, and I was told it was found outside on the high desert area of Colorado. I've seen one other one at the CLA show. All others that I've seen have been in museums. But then, I'm kind of limited here in Wisconsin on good antique arms shows like you fellows out east have. The original poster has in his hands a real nice one, and even with the late date, very desirable. I'd love to own one like it.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #14 on:** December 19, 2017, 04:43:03 PM »

Quote from: Steve Collward on December 19, 2017, 03:08:18 AM

One other very good book to consider is Ryan R. Gale's "For Trade and Treaty". Excellent color photos with measurements of the guns illustrated.

There are mistakes in Gale's books. Keeping that in mind they aren't bad resource books.

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #15 on:** December 19, 2017, 09:00:28 PM »

Quote from: Brent English on December 19, 2017, 04:33:10 PM

Agree with Hudnut they are extremely rare to find in original condition. I have two, but both are relics. The first is a barn find Belgian production one (beech stock, etc.) that is missing the lock and side plate with shortened stock I picked up at a farm auction, of all places. The second is a later percussion one, Enfield style lock, that is also missing its lock and sideplate. I think it may have been a Barnett. Got it off a trade blanket at a rendezvous. That one is heavily weathered, and I was told it was found outside on the high desert area of Colorado. I've seen one other one at the CLA show. All others that I've seen have been in museums. But then, I'm kind of limited here in Wisconsin on good antique arms shows like you fellows out east have. The original poster has in his hands a real nice one, and even with the late date, very desirable. I'd love to own one like it.

I agree, I really like the one photographed originally in this post. I think Flayderman had a small section in his book on trade guns, and some photographs of the serpent side plates... ever since I looked at that section of his book, I've always hoped to come across one. It's such an interesting area of collecting, I may have to pick up a copy of the book posted and learn more about the fur trade, and the guns.

redheart · « **Reply #16 on:** December 19, 2017, 10:44:02 PM »

Quote from: Hudnut on December 18, 2017, 11:39:06 PM

Just received my copy. I thought I knew something about trade guns. Ha!
Get Gooding's book on HBC guns, as well.

Speaking of later trade guns, one of my projects is a late percussion gun, with Enfield style breech. Fitted a Parker Hale Enfield breech to a North Star barrel. Altered a serpent to work with an Enfield type lock.

Awesome project Hud! Please send pics. when you're finished wit it.

jdm · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2017, 04:49:37 AM »

Here's a couple of pictures of an earlier NW trade gun. Wheeler & Sons. is the maker . War of 1812 period. Flint converted to percussion . It appears to have belonged to a Native American at one time.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #18 on:** December 22, 2017, 05:04:05 AM »

At a monthly Rod and Gun Club meeting earlier this year, a fellow presented me with the remains of a NW trade gun ... late like your example, Justin, but in less shootable condition. This one is missing its buttstock but the forestock is full length. It's a .54 (28 gauge) smoothbore. She was found in the shallows of Bobtail Lake, only a few miles from here (Prince George, BC) Wish it could tell us its history. It's going to our local university for preservation and display.

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Robert Wolfe · « **Reply #19 on:** December 22, 2017, 05:40:05 AM »

Nice Taylor. Someone who knows more about trade guns that I should probably comment but I note that yours is different in a key bit of construction. The barrel bolt appears to go straight down and thread into a (bent) trigger plate. Most that I've seen pictures of seem to utilize the older (cheaper) method of a bolt coming up from below at an angle through the trigger guard and threading into the barrel tang with no trigger plate being used.

Justin Urbantas · « **Reply #20 on:** December 22, 2017, 06:23:35 AM »

That is really neat Taylor. I bet that gun has a $#*! of a story. Probably a guy got chased into the shallows by a griz, then he fired his one and only shot and when that didn't stop the charge he broke the gun over the bear's head, then got the $#*! out of there in a hurry.

Steve Collward · « **Reply #21 on:** December 22, 2017, 04:55:23 PM »

Below are some photos of another "Wheeler & Son" marked trade gun, ca. 1814. Barrel is 37" long with overall length of 52 1/2".

Hudnut · « **Reply #22 on:** December 22, 2017, 06:28:47 PM »

Here is a detached lock from a HBC gun, Barnett, 1822.

These are photos of the I/l\D (Indian Department) brands on a Moxham fusil. This one came out of Brant County in SW Ontario; probably supplied to Brant's Mohawks.

Very nice Wheeler variant. Pretty sure these were not fur trade guns, but were supplied during the 1812 period. These would turn up occasionally in SW Ontario.

Here is a detached lock from one of the pistols supplied during the 1812 War.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #23 on:** December 22, 2017, 08:07:53 PM »

The late guns have locks that date starting at 1865 with a rounded tail.

n stephenson · « **Reply #24 on:** December 22, 2017, 08:27:48 PM »

Quote from: D. Taylor Sapergia on December 22, 2017, 05:04:05 AM

At a monthly Rod and Gun Club meeting earlier this year, a fellow presented me with the remains of a NW trade gun ... late like your example, Justin, but in less shootable condition. This one is missing its buttstock but the forestock is full length. It's a .54 (28 gauge) smoothbore. She was found in the shallows of Bobtail Lake, only a few miles from here (Prince George, BC) Wish it could tell us its history. It's going to our local university for preservation and display.

Taylor , that is a Cool! relic! Thanks for posting it. We find guns in that condition all the time. They are mostly last years inlines that the local deer hunters didn't think they had to CLEAN! Nate

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Author Topic: Late production NW trade guns. (Read 10662 times)

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