Author Topic: J P Beck relief carving  (Read 6686 times)

Offline gumboman

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J P Beck relief carving
« on: December 18, 2017, 05:58:34 PM »
In the book "THE LANCASTER LONG RIFLE" by Patrick Hornberger & John Kolar, there is a rifle by John P. Beck on pages 14 and 15. This rifle has a lion carved in relief and features a double headed eagle on the cheek piece. The lion is standing upright, holding a vine in his left rear foot and front paw. This carving pattern is appealing to me and I am considering adding this to my current Lancaster style build. I am at the point in the build that I need to decide what carving style I will use. I have both a Beck and Dickert patch box so my final design will be one or the other.

There is little detail about this gun or the maker in this book. I am hoping to find more information on this particular gun before I make a final decision whether to use this pattern.

If anyone knows of this gun or has seen it, maybe you can comment. I am thinking it is possible other builders have made guns using this pattern and can provide information useful to me.

With that idea in mind I have a few questions I thought other forum members who are familiar with this gun could answer.

*Has anyone built a gun using this pattern before? If so can you share some pictures?
*I wonder if Beck used this lion carving on more guns. Are there other examples of guns using this?
*Does anyone know if other pictures or more detailed information exists on this gun? If so where can I find it?
*For you experienced and skilled relief carvers, I ask this question. This lion carving, is it considered a simplistic carving design or is it more     complex and difficult to execute?

Any information will be appreciated.

Offline t.caster

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2017, 08:18:00 PM »
The rifle you refer to is called the "Lion Beck" and is considered the grandest of Beck's work and one of the best Pennsylvania longrifles ever found.
I have researched Beck somewhat and have pics of 19 of his rifles from various books. I have built 6 Beck rifles to date and the latest is in the classified section on this sight, for sale. I have been trying to building up the nerve to build the Lion Beck for years. There is a LOT to this masterpiece and I would want to do it justice.
I know of no other Beck's with the lion carved on it. Simplistic is not the word I would use for the lion carving. I would call it folkart or frachtur(sp) style, as done back in the day. Look at the animals scrimshawed on powder horns for a good example of how animals were drawn back in the 18th century. Almost cartoon like in many cases, never realistic.
Google; J. P. Beck rifles, Gunsmith J P Beck, flintlock rifles....for images of this rifle and many more.
Good luck!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 06:33:12 PM by t.caster »
Tom C.

Offline bama

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2017, 08:35:54 PM »
Gene that rifle would definitely be an interesting build and a test of ones skills on the highest levels. Pushing the envelope is the best way to learn in my opinion and knowing your skill set I believe that you could do a good job.

Merry Christmas

Jim
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Offline gumboman

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2017, 03:57:43 PM »
Thanks fellas. I will continue my research on this gun. Also I might have to buy another book to get some better pictures of the carving. I need to see the tang carving, but I could probably follow examples of other Beck rifles for that.

Merry Christmas

Offline smart dog

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2017, 06:26:26 PM »
Hi,
Actually, IMO, the other carving on the "Lion" Beck is more difficult than the lion.  If you can draw it well, make sure the background is cleaned up well, and can cut clean incised lines, I don't think the lion is particularly difficult. There is very little relief sculpting and Beck achieved some 3-D effect by cutting incised lines as you would shade an engraving. There is a version of this gun by Homer Dangler in Robert Weil's book "Contemporary Makers of Muzzle Loading Firearms".

dave
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Offline gumboman

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2017, 09:46:02 PM »
Thanks smart dog. I will carve a practice version of the Lion just to test the difficulty. I agree the other carving especially around the wrist looks challenging. I will practice a few times then go for it.

Offline t.caster

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 11:26:36 PM »
I agree with Smart Dog about the carving difficulty. I've looking for my digital files for more pics of it, but can't find them. Sorry!
Kindig's Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle has 3 views of it, No. 101.
Peter Alexander's Gunsmith of Grenville Co. book has 3 color pics of a nice one he built.
The rest of the rifle is carved much like one that I have found in 3 different books with the daisy headed patchbox. He did numerous versions of that one.





I hope this helps some.

Tom C
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 11:27:23 PM by t.caster »
Tom C.

Offline gumboman

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 02:26:38 AM »
Thanks for the pics t.caster. I have Peter Alexander's book so I will take a look there for more drawings.

Offline Goo

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 02:47:45 PM »
I dont mean to disrespectful here with my question.  Anybody have knowledge on who this rifle was built for ? and why the lion?  A lion seems to be out of place  (a non sequitur) for examples of what has survived over time.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 05:01:07 PM »
I've been looking at the two Becks on the KRA CD mentioned earlier. Although elaborately carved they seem to have been quickly done in a workman like manner. The background of the carving is really rough, all chisel marks and uneven.....which didn't seem to be much of an issue back in the day. Possibly we make too big of a deal about perfection these days.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2017, 07:34:56 PM »
An astute observation Mike.  I was appalled when I looked at the lack of effort to finish well a couple of Bonewitz rifles.  I could not let such work leave my shop for fear of ridicule.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 07:46:52 PM »
Hi Mike and Taylor,
I see the same things but I like some of the imperfections because it is the signature of a human being.  I don't like sloppy work but I want the gun to look like it was made by me not a machine. I try to do that by making a good effort at perfection but not worrying much if the result is not. For me, that attitude results in guns that really appeal to me.  However, the exception for me is when I try to make late flint English sporting guns or duelling pistols. On those, I fuss over every little detail until it is as perfect as I can humanly achieve.

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Offline Mauser06

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 09:19:29 PM »
You guys know I'm far from any kind of expert. I haven't even gotten into the shallow end of the pool yet...

But while researching and studying original rifles, the same things catch my attention.

Yes they are a couple hundred years old and that accounts for some of the stuff..but like Mike said, especially the carving, lots of time it does appear to have been done quickly. It wasn't near as refined and perfect as some of today's makers.

I think the fact lies that those guns were still made to be used. The carving is art and decoration..but the time and care wasn't given to it as today's rifles.

And, they probably didn't carry a year or 2 or more backlog like many of today's makers.  I'd imagine they had them out of the shop pretty quickly...

It'd be something to know exactly how much work was done by the guy signing the barrel...

Offline Daryl

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2017, 10:54:46 PM »
Imperfections are OK. Even with them, I still like this. Yeah - I realize it is not relief carving.



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Offline smallpatch

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2017, 11:23:15 PM »
Daryl,
incised carving like the Vernon you have, is MUCH more difficult than relief carving.  There is just no place to modify, or hide your mistakes.
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Offline axelp

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2017, 11:45:44 PM »
Believable folk art is often harder to replicate than the highly refined stuff. Try to replicate a child's drawing. Too much attention to keeping things exact, or refining the curves, and it really shows up and begins to look not believable. Same with good Folk Art. The mistakes and the whimsy make it what it is. I love good folk art.

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Offline flehto

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2017, 03:36:14 AM »
I'm wondering how fast a good reputation could be destroyed if the carving was done in the so called "workmanlike manner". It seems Mlers yrs ago were more of a tool and the buyers tolerated rough backgrounds and the "workmanlike manner of building. In this modern age of  "perfection", turning out work as was done yrs  ago  on originals, the builder would soon  find himself w/o any orders.

I had  one LR rejected during the 10 day inspection period because the carving on both sides of the wrist  wasn't exactly the same. I told him that many original LRd were like this and he agreed to keep the LR. but, 3 weeks later I saw it up for sale and it was quickly sold......Fred


Offline Maalsral

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2017, 04:59:03 AM »
Hey Fred I was the one who bought that rifle. I couldn’t be happier.
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Offline gumboman

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2017, 04:15:15 PM »
Good observation on the workmanlike quality of carving on the old guns. I get the same impressions when I closely examine the photos of some of the well known makers guns. Mostly likely our expectations for precise carving are high based on contemporary examples made by very skilled artists.

This is another reason the LION carving is interesting to me since I think I can carve it to look good enough or close to that of Beck. But I still have time to decide which carving design to use.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2017, 05:40:54 PM »
I think with all of today's peer pressure, it would be harder to finish a gun in a 'workmanlike manner' than to let a finely finished one out of the shop.
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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2017, 05:52:45 PM »
I do think that in our desire for perfection, many pieces are being “reproduced” that never existed!

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: J P Beck relief carving
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2017, 06:11:09 PM »
Good observation on the workmanlike quality of carving on the old guns. I get the same impressions when I closely examine the photos of some of the well known makers guns. Mostly likely our expectations for precise carving are high based on contemporary examples made by very skilled artists.

This is another reason the LION carving is interesting to me since I think I can carve it to look good enough or close to that of Beck. But I still have time to decide which carving design to use.
You can probably do the Lion fine if you take your time when you draw it out. Find some photos of it that are high quality and go for it. I've always liked those bizarre animals that are sometimes found behind the cheek piece.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?