Smooth rifle?

[high_on_a_mtn_17]

I’m sure this has been brought up before and this is more of an historical question as opposed to a build question, but I’ve been pondering it a bit, what would be the historical authenticity of a “smooth rifle”? By that, I mean a gun, stocked and mounted in the style of perhaps a Pennsylvania or Southern rifle but barreled with a smoothbore, let’s say, during the Golden Age roughly?

I have a hard time believing there would have been many of such a gun. On the frontier, one would have taken a rifle over a smoothbore hands down if he could obtain one.

Reason I ask- I’m working up ideas for a build, and I’m stuck on the notion of the proverbial “one gun hunter.” I want a gun that I can safely use to pick off timbering squirrels with shot in the populated world we have today, and in another season be able to load it with ball for big game, then back to shot for spring turkey, etc. That would typically be the realm of the Trade gun, Fowler, or fusil.... but I just really like the style and feel of the rifle...

[smokinbuck]

I recently acquired an original smooth rifle built by Charles Seibert in Pickaway County, Ohio. It is a 1/2 stock with a single trigger and back action percussion lock. The barrel is octagon to round, 40" ling and approximately .58 caliber. The trigger guard is for the single trigger with a round bow. The original sights are in place and the architecture is definitely that of a rifle. The condition overall is very good with a pitted but usable bore. I feel it is a later, 1870's, period gun.
Mark

[Dennis Glazener]

This should help: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=19659.0
and even more http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14609.msg152713#msg152713
Dennis

[Black Hand]

On the frontier, one would have taken a rifle over a smoothbore hands down if he could obtain one.

And yet, smoothbores were FAR more common and rifles rare....

That said, smoothrifles are in a category all their own and likely limited to specific area(s), time and builder(s).

[Mauser06]

Looking through RCA seems a fair number of originals were smooth bores. 

[SingleMalt]

Looking through RCA seems a fair number of originals were smooth bores.

There are, but many were probably built as rifles and had the bores "freshed," removing the rifling.  We'll never really know which it was originally.

[Mauser06]

I thought that could be the case as well single malt. But then I thought as time went on and rifling "took over" that they'd freshed and rifled them..

Like you said, we will never really know.

The few surviving rifles can only tell us so much..

[rich pierce]

Rules for estimating whether an original rifle, now smoothbore, was a smoothbore originally.

Double set triggers? Zero chance was smooth originally. Single trigger?  No help.

Bore smaller than 40?  Highly unlikely smooth originally.

Bore larger than .62?  Highly likely.

Octagon to round barrel?  Likely smooth originally.

No rear sight or dovetail?  Certainly smooth originally.

Made in the South?   Unlikely smooth originally.

Bucks County?  Probably smooth originally. Berks?  50:50. Northampton?  50:50.

Round toe and fowler guard?  Highly likely smooth originally.

[high_on_a_mtn_17]

Thanks guys. Good information to ponder on.

I can’t help but wonder, did smoothbores come around again as times changed, 1) As rifling was was out it was probably cheaper to freshen them up smooth and 2) The game changed?

Earlier when the eastern frontier had plenty of deer, elk buffalo to be hunted, as well as the Indian threat, a rifle was the obvious choice. As all that was pushed west, and settlement grew, hunting small game and bird would have become more common and necessary, so might not the smoothbores have become a useful tool again, at least in the east into Ohio/Kentucky country?

If your father was a hunter and hunted elk, and you were a farmer with his handed down and worn out rifle, and there was nothing left to hunt but rabbits and birds, would that refresh to smoothbore make sense?

Thanks again, gents.

[Daryl]

According to the authors of "Firearms of the American West" muzzleloading smoothbores were ordered about 20%(#'s) of the time and usually were smooth rifles, sighted, octagonal barrels, but smooth - earlier 1880's. What the priority was  back "East", smooth or rifled, before the Western push, is not spoke of.

By the late 1800's smoothbores did become more popular "in the West", amongst civilians.

[high_on_a_mtn_17]

Mr. Pierce, thank you.
In the rules, what kind of barrel would one expect to find on an original smooth Bucks county rifle? Octagon to round? Full octagon?

Thanks again!

[Black Hand]

Earlier when the eastern frontier had plenty of deer, elk buffalo to be hunted, as well as the Indian threat, a rifle was the obvious choice. As all that was pushed west, and settlement grew, hunting small game and bird would have become more common and necessary, so might not the smoothbores have become a useful tool again, at least in the east into Ohio/Kentucky country?

I'm afraid you are applying a modern bias to the situation. The rifle WAS NOT the obvious choice because rifles were UNCOMMON while smoothbores were available everywhere. An animal or hostile was no less dead when hit with a ball from a smoothbore than from a rifle. Even out west, a smoothbore was more common than a rifle....

[rich pierce]

Even out west, a smoothbore was more common than a rifle....

When, where, and who?

Have you studied trade lists at forts and fur trade brigades?

Rifles were preferred by far among white fur trappers and later, buffalo hunters.

Rifles were the gun of choice to trade to Native Americans and seek their favor or peace.

Northwest guns were common on the northern plains and in Canadian west.

Where and when were smoothbores more common in the West?

[rich pierce]

Mr. Pierce, thank you.
In the rules, what kind of barrel would one expect to find on an original smooth Bucks county rifle? Octagon to round? Full octagon?

Thanks again!

Mostly octagonal and slightly swamped, but round and octagon to round barrels are found as well.

[jerrywh]

 From what I have read smooth bores were the gun of choice with native Americans all over the west and in the east as well.  There were more smooth bore trade guns sold to the natives than any other gun by far and that is what they wanted. More trade guns were sold to all than any other gun by far.  Many of the trappers out west also preferred the smooth bore to the rifle. Why? because the smooth bore is the ultimate survival gun. In the Rouge Indian wars of early Oregon most of the Indians had Hudson Bay trade guns. The later Indian wars of the 1870s and 1860s were different but even then some had the HB guns.  History shows that if one was to depend on large game to survive you probably wouldn't make it. Many a trapper died from starvation when a shotgun might have made the difference. But plant food was the real difference.

[thecapgunkid]

Betcha you have to stay general, here.  In all the years I researched for my second novel ( A season of Purpose) it was extremely rare to find rifles in New England and up through Lake George during the F&IW period....even Jeagers.   But there were  some.

When Morgan's Riflemen came through during the Rev War they were so uncommon as to be called "Shirtmen" by some accounts. But there were exceptions.

I'd put my chips on Pennsylvania being some sort of buffer between the two types  for a long time, and living here in the epicenter of riflemaking between Lancaster, Reading and Lebanon there's obviously a common status of rifleguns.

In all the years I used to trek up near Lake George, NY, I never carried a rifle  as much for authenticity as for practicality.

I wish there were some sort of get together we could stage for members, because I'd love to hear more from all the members.  I wonder if we could prevail on Greg Dixon....

[smallpatch]

Just a practical note.... I can only afford one gun, (pretty realistic for the day I would think),  to feed and defend my family and home,  wouldn't you choose a smoothbore?
Shot for birds and small game, ball for large game, or hostiles?
Most military arms of the time were smooth.....
I know what I'd choose.

[Top Jaw]

Another consideration.  As my eyes continue to age, my rifle sights get fuzzier and fuzzier.  If you lived beyond 45 years old on the frontier, as Mark Baker has said, you would probably be a living legend by that point,....and I think you would likely pass your rifle down to a family member and get yourself a smoothbore with buck and ball loads that you could still use effectively with just a front site.

[gibster]

I have two smooth rifles that I feel sure were both made that way.  Both have rifle style guards and cheek rests and one has a patch box. Both appear to be from the Northampton/Lehigh area but neither are signed. Both have octagon to round barrels with rear sights, both are around .62 caliber with single triggers. How rare smooth rifles are, I can't say. I do see more rifles than smooth rifles. But I do think that they were made and used, especially in the east. As big game disappeared, they would have been more versatile than a rifle.

[axelp]

I know for myself practically speaking, my go to hunting gun is a smoothbore. I can bring home birds, tree rats, rabbits, turkey and also take larger game with it too.

Speaking modern, my best home defense gun is a shotgun.

Daniel Boone was known to carry a smoothbore when in an indian fight at least a few times. The rifle has a long romance in the Americas, and it has been the tool of legendary men, and hide hunters for sure. The smoothbore has been a go-to meat gathering tool for the common man for hundreds of years. What is better? rifle or smoothbore? Easy answer, the gun you have in your hand.

K