Curious long-barrelled fowling piece on an auction site

[Elnathan]

http://auctions.lyonandturnbull.com/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=427++++++490+&refno=++187152&image=1

I stumbled across this today and thought y'all might find this interesting. Looks like waterfowl gun built along the lines of a type G trade gun - sheet brass iron trigger guard, long trigger, and tang bolt installed from the bottom, and either a thin sheet brass iron buttplate or no buttplate at all. Only two lock-bolts, though.

I can't imagine that it was built for trade to the Indians, so I figure that it was a bottom-end piece intended for market hunters in Britain or for export to the American colonies. I'm curious to see what you guys think of it.


Edited to add: should have read the description better!

[rich pierce]

Nice!  Wish we could see the sideplate.

[Feltwad]

http://auctions.lyonandturnbull.com/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?salelot=427++++++490+&refno=++187152&image=1

I stumbled across this today and thought y'all might find this interesting. Looks like waterfowl gun built along the lines of a type G trade gun - sheet brass iron trigger guard, long trigger, and tang bolt installed from the bottom, and either a thin sheet brass iron buttplate or no buttplate at all. Only two lock-bolts, though.

I can't imagine that it was built for trade to the Indians, so I figure that it was a bottom-end piece intended for market hunters in Britain or for export to the American colonies. I'm curious to see what you guys think of it.


Edited to add: should have read the description better!

The gun is a period long fowler and would have been used by the wildfowlers in the UK and most likely it would have seen service on the Scottish lough . with its long barrel would have put the gun  prior to 1770 and could have been made by Thomas Hudson who was in business at Temple Bar , London the lock looks later
Feltwad

All the best for 2018

[Hungry Horse]

Although this gun has a very long barrel, the rest of it screams trade gun. The cheap furniture, lack of detail around the lock, and an upwards tang bolt, lead me to believe its a long barreled trade gun.

  Hungry Horse

[Elnathan]

Although this gun has a very long barrel, the rest of it screams trade gun. The cheap furniture, lack of detail around the lock, and an upwards tang bolt, lead me to believe its a long barreled trade gun.

  Hungry Horse

Long, heavy barrel - it looks like is around 1 1/2" at the breech to me. Quite a different approach from the usual featherweight trade fusil, so I don't think it is just an usually long-barrel variant of a type "G", if that is what you are trying to convey.

I can easily accept that it was intended for export, but I don't think that it was meant to go to the Creek or Cherokee or whatnot as part of the hide trade. I think it is a specialized wild-fowling piece. I'm just wondering who exactly needed a really cheap gun specialized to shoot ducks and geese....

The very first thing that popped into my head when I saw this was the very long-barreled fowling piece loaded with seven or eight rifle balls and sixteen or eighteen buckshot that Daniel Boone carried at Blue Licks. the description sounds like a wildfowling piece, and I've always been curious how Boone ended up with one in Kentucky.

[Feltwad]

Has I said it is  a fowler of the period  has for the export market I do not think this gun left England . The long barrel was to burn the coarse powder of the day  was made of iron and most likely came from Italy and would have been proofed at London and stamped with the foreign stamp, the sight is position at 2 too 3 inches from the muzzle Has a shoulder gun the average bore size would have been   10 or 12  bore the big sizes were known has small punt guns .
I have restored several of these guns and do own two in my collection  but later one was  converted to percussion.
Feltwad

[Pukka Bundook]

Feltwad,

I think you're on the right track.
To me, it's an old fowling gun or bumper, made for shooting at birds on the water.
Hudson lock could be Thomas Hudson, (1) as it seems to fit time-wise, and this lock is likely before 1765.
I think the barrel may be older than the lock, maybe a good bit older.     If made in sections it could be Spanish or as you say Italian.
Don't think it's a trade gun, and think the old way of fitting the tang screw upwards is because the barrel was made when this was still in vogue. (say late 17th C.)
I also believe it May have  been re-stocked in it's working life.....very plain and most likely a provincial job.
A lot of carpenters used to get jobs of this type....plain working pieces needing repairs or a new stock.
We see " newer" working guns made very plainly  as well. The well known photo of Snowdon Slights with his punt and duck guns shows most of these to be the sort used  at Fisherman /fowlers, who made their livelihood shooting and fishing.  Mind, his old percussions look like they started off as flint, so may be as old as this one.
In all, a decent working gun for wildfowl I'd guess.

PS, another reason to think  re-stocked/newer lock or whatever, , is that the lock is a lot better quality I'd say than the t/guard and stock.

Richard.

[Feltwad]

I examined these guns owned by Sowden Slights about 25 years ago the were stored in a damp cellar of a York museum in a poor state and covered in lime whitewash falling from the damp walls.
Feltwad

[James Rogers]

I would think this thing could have been stocked up with misc. Or salvaged parts later than the period given by the sellers and was probably done by the same understudy types who were squirting out lower end trading arms.

[Pukka Bundook]

Feltwad,

Did you get to do anything about Snowden's guns?    That lime would eat them up!

[Feltwad]

Feltwad,

Did you get to do anything about Snowden's guns?    That lime would eat them up!

Never heard or seen anything since I last saw them, but they were in a sorry state and had been there for some time  some of the smaller fowlers were stood in a corner I remember picking them up to examine them and pointing them muzzle down the white wash bits and dust ran out of the barrel .Hope someone saved them .
Feltwad

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks for the reply Feltwad.

York's not so far away, Could you go back and see what's doing?  I'm now about 5,000 miles left of York....

[Feltwad]

Thanks for the reply Feltwad.

York's not so far away, Could you go back and see what's doing?  I'm now about 5,000 miles left of York....

I have no idea where they are now of if the collection are still together.
Feltwad

[Pukka Bundook]

Which museum was it, Feltwad?

[Feltwad]

Which museum was it, Feltwad?

I am sure it was the Yorkshire Museum  but I said 25 years ago but going through my record it must have been between 35 -40 years since I saw them
Feltwad

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks Feltwad.  Have a pal near Horsefair I will contact and see what he can find out.

All the best for 2018!

Richard.

Feltwad,
Edited to add;
Pal contacted the museum, and they still have this collection.  It was out on loan a few years ago.  He is to make arrangements to view them.
Will attach photos when he does.

Richard.

[Collector]

Not as unfamiliar or as unusual as we might think, although I do imagine survival rates were low.

This piece reminds me of 1.) a photo of a very similar long barreled fowler, taken in what I believe was a museum located in a Canadian stone fort and 2.) a very early colonial (English) painting of a native American Indian chief (?) standing, holding a fowler with the butt on the ground, that had a barrel that extended well above his head.

Have to look for those images...

[Feltwad]

Thanks Feltwad.  Have a pal near Horsefair I will contact and see what he can find out.

All the best for 2018!

Richard.

Feltwad,
Edited to add;
Pal contacted the museum, and they still have this collection.  It was out on loan a few years ago.  He is to make arrangements to view them.
Will attach photos when he does.

Richard.

Pleased it is still in there as of late I have never heard it mentioned , thought it had gone walk about.  hopefully he will find it in better circumstances  than when I examined it

Feltwad

[Feltwad]

Not as unfamiliar or as unusual as we might think, although I do imagine survival rates were low.

This piece reminds me of 1.) a photo of a very similar long barreled fowler, taken in what I believe was a museum located in a Canadian stone fort and 2.) a very early colonial (English) painting of a native American Indian chief (?) standing, holding a fowler with the butt on the ground, that had a barrel that extended well above his head.

Have to look for those images...

Most of the early fowlers had long barrel  which was needed to burn the then coarse powder  shoulder guns came in bore sizes of 10 and upwards to a  4bore but 12 and 10 was the most common  enclosed is a image of the 10 to 7 bore long fowlers.
Feltwad
A Stand of Shoulder Long Fowlers

[Pukka Bundook]

Nice group of fowling pieces Feltwad!

Was the old doglock made with no rammer?....Like a light punt-gun maybe,  Or chopped later?  Nice stock finish on them all.

I had also asked a good mate in NZ about Snowdon's old guns, (He's from Sheffield originally, but been in NZ forever) and he contacted Arthur Credland, who wrote "The Gunmakers of Hull"  book.   He also said the collection is still together and he wrote it up for the Armouries a few years ago.

Arthur said that Akrills of Beverley made Snowdon's punt -guns.  All very interesting, and I'd Also like to see more photos of your set!

All the best,
Richard.

[Feltwad]

Nice group of fowling pieces Feltwad!

Was the old doglock made with no rammer?....Like a light punt-gun maybe,  Or chopped later?  Nice stock finish on them all.

I had also asked a good mate in NZ about Snowdon's old guns, (He's from Sheffield originally, but been in NZ forever) and he contacted Arthur Credland, who wrote "The Gunmakers of Hull"  book.   He also said the collection is still together and he wrote it up for the Armouries a few years ago.

Arthur said that Akrills of Beverley made Snowdon's punt -guns.  All very interesting, and I'd Also like to see more photos of your set!

All the best,
Richard.

The dog lock gun is a 2 bore bank gun used on the sand dunes or the sea wall to shoot fowl on the shore line of the incoming tide  .Yes the two punt guns that Sowden had  were made by Akrills of Beverley the largest one was made for Snowden,s father and weighed 140lbs with a 10ft barrel and a bore of 1.1/4 inches which he charged with 4 oz of coarse punt powder to 18 oz of No 1 shot ,No wonder the punt shot back a considerable distant when fired
Your friend in NZ his initials would not be M.T . Enclosed are a image of my big guns
Feltwad

[Pukka Bundook]

What A Grand collection Feltwad!

You have about as many as old Snowden had!    You could do a thread here about every one of those.   
It's a pity that the MLAGB forum is so dead, but here you'd get a lot more interest. 

Suppose I could put up a few as well, but not as many as you!

Yes, my old pals initials Are MT.  :-)
He plans on coming up in June for our annual Victorian shoot.

Do you know him well? (MT that is.)   

[Feltwad]

What A Grand collection Feltwad!

You have about as many as old Snowden had!    You could do a thread here about every one of those.   
It's a pity that the MLAGB forum is so dead, but here you'd get a lot more interest. 

Suppose I could put up a few as well, but not as many as you!

Yes, my old pals initials Are MT.  :-)
He plans on coming up in June for our annual Victorian shoot.

Do you know him well? (MT that is.)   

If it is the same MT I new him many decades ago he lived with his mother in Sheffield  he was then a proper globe trotter  He built some top class muzzle loaders with different ignitions  and would often go walk about for weeks  when on his travels , living rough and sleeping under a tarp. .Last I heard of him he married and  settled down in N.Z .
Feltwad

[Pukka Bundook]

Feltwad,

Yes, it's the same bloke. Married yes, settled down?  well sort of! Still goes walkabout. Been hunting recently with a 'new ' snaphaunce  Scottish style gun with Persian barrel. He still builds regularly.   
If you want, I can give you his email.   
He's been posting a bit on Brit. Militaria forums.     
M is as irrepressible as ever I can happily say!
If you PM me with your details, I'll pass them on to him for you.
It was this bloke that got me interested in building matchlocks and such, decades ago.
Mods,
Please forgive the OT I will say no more.

[Mike Brooks]

I know who you're talking about, I'm shocked you can understand him, always had difficulty communicating with him, my Midwestern ear just can't get it. Never figured him for the marrying type, wife must be the most patient woman in the world!