Engraving help

[Mark Elliott]

I am looking for some suggestions to help my engraving.   I am chasing with a 1 oz hammer using a homemade aluminum handle with 3/32" bits.  I have been practicing a lot, but I am still having trouble controlling the depth of my cuts.    I am using the Lindsay sharpening system.   The Universal template seems to work best for me, although I have the 96 degree template for finer lines.   My main concern is long straight lines.   Some lines are good, but most are not.   I just don't seem to be making progress.    Any suggestions would be appreciated.     I really need a good engraver to watch me work and correct my errors.   

[jerrywh]

 Mark.
    I need some more info. As you may know the depth of the cut can make a straight line look crooked because the cut will very in width as the depth increases.  Are your lines straight but varying in depth or just crooked or both?

[Hungry Horse]

I traded in my light engraving hammer in on a small machinists crosspein hammer, and made some heavier gravers, per Wallace Gustlers video. Things got a lot easier immediately. Light taps with the hammer move the graver with ease. The heavier gravers have less spring, and are easier the hang on to, and control.

  Hungry Horse

[Mark Elliott]

Jerry,   

My lines are straight.   They just vary in depth.   It is maintaining a consistent depth that I am struggling with.   That is a general problem, but most evident on long straight lines.  I figured practice would help with that but it hasn't.   I am beginning to suspect that I may not have the fine motor control in my hands to engrave.   I had an illness a number of years ago that damaged my spinal cord and left me with a loss of fine motor control and feeling in my extremities.    My writing was affected.   It took me years to learn to sign my name again and writing is still difficult.   I do calligraphy and it is passable, but not great.   I figure it is as good as I can do.   I want the same with my engraving.   I know that I am not capable of engraving as well as someone who does not have spinal cord damage.   I just want to be passable.

Thanks for any advice.

Mark
 

[Mark Elliott]

Hungry Horse, 

I do have heavier handles.   I was using them before I switched to the lighter aluminum handles.   I really didn't notice a difference in the quality of my lines from one to the other.   I could switch back and try again. 

Mark

[jerrywh]

 Mark. I found that heavier gravers made me dive even more. Do you know what the heal angle is on those gravers?  It might help if you used a steeper face angle and a lower heal angle.  One problem is this. Every body's hands are different.  Lindsey's templates are sort of generic. They work for most people but for some people with bigger hands or very small hands they might not work so well. If I recall you are a pretty big guy. Personally I use a 20° to a 22° heel angle and a 55° face angle most of the time. The steeper face angle will stop you from diving as much especially on soft metal. Using templates limits a person a lot. That is why I often say templates are not for professionals.
   Mark the 96° v graver will not widen the lines as much when going deeper. The problem with a wide belly on a graver is just what you are experiencing. A small variation in depth will make a big difference in width.

[Goo]

Try different face and heel angles on the gravers and keep notes

[Mark Elliott]

I tried the heavier handles again, but I had noticeably less control with them.    So,  I think heavy handles are out, which goes along with what Jerry said.    I did try the 96 degree graver again, which actually has a larger tip than the 116 degree - long story,  and I got more even lines with the 96 degree graver; also in accord with what Jerry said.    As to the angles on my gravers, I really don't know.   There are whatever the templates set.   

Jerry,    What jig do you use to grind your gravers so that you can set all the angles?   

Thanks to all for their suggestions.

Mark

[Ron Scott]

Hi Mark,
You will likely get a multitude of answers about sharpening angles and fixtures. I advise fledgling  engravers to stay simple. I will admit a preference for Lindsay sharpening fixtures. They are relatively inexpensive and give exactly the same angle each sharpening without any chance of changing an adjustment. Repeatability of primary angle and heel are really needed. Do have a camera that will take a video? If so perhaps someone could document your cuts and send video to Jerry for analysis.

[L. Akers]

Mark, you might try creating a longer relief which will set your heel farther away from the tip of your graver.  For a non-varying depth of cut it is imperative that your tip to heel line remain parallel to the surface.  A longer relief may help, but at the sacrifice of a lessened ability to cut curves.  Then practice, practice, practice.

[bama]

Mark I have been thinking about my own experience in engraving. There are many things that can be causing your problem and it would be hard to give you an definite answer. What I will do is tell what I did to solve this problem for me.

I first took a class from GRS. Yes this cost money but not that much. I had struggled for about 4 years trying to teach myself engraving and needless to say I was not doing to well. I learned more the first day of the class than I did in the 4 years I spent trying the self taught method.

I purchased a sharpening system. I have both the universal system by Lindsay and the GRS dual sharpening system and I use them both. You can not cut good lines until you can sharpen a graver. Many can sharpen a graver without a sharpening system, I am not one of them. If you can then great. If you want to cut a consistent lines you need to be able to sharpen consistently.

I first started with a chasing hammer that was to heavy. I was constantly breaking the tip of the graver. After taking classes for Mark Silver and Wallace Gusler I determined that I needed to use a lighter hammer and lighter taps on the graver. This is not easy for guys that are our size. It was very difficult for me to learn that I was not driving a nail and to lighten up on the force used to drive a graver.

I also was using an aluminum handle to hold the graver that was about 3/8" in diameter and about 5" long. I found that in trying to hold onto this round graver handle I was over gripping trying to control the graver. My hand would cramp in a very short time and my lines looked like $#@*. I switched to a wooden handle that was shaped more like a file handle and found that I could control the graver better and not use a death grip in trying to control the graver, thus no more hand cramping.

When I took the GRS class I used one of their air operated hand hand pieces. What a pleasure, I did not know that engraving could be that enjoyable. I now use a Lindsay Palm Graver and consider it to be one of my best investments. I know that many want to say this is not traditional but hey how many truly build in the old ways, very, very, very few. I found I could engrave all day and not be worn out and hurting. I could also produce more work and better quality work with the Lindsay. So for me now I only use the H&C if I have to. I know how and I do it occasionally but If I want to to my best work on a rifle is go to the Lindsay.

The Lindsay was a big investment but it was worth it to me. I wanted to be able to produce top quality work, as least to the best of my ability. You build professionally also and with your health issues you may want to take a look at the GRS and Lindsay systems. Both are good, not cheap, but worth every penny to me.

Good luck and I hope that his helps

Jim

[Mark Elliott]

Thanks for all the tips.    I think that I will grind a 96 degree tip with a longer heel just for straight lines.  I wish that I could afford an air graver, but that is not a possibility right now.    However, I will seriously consider putting the money into it if I can sell my chunk gun.

 

[jerrywh]

 It is a fallacy to think tha ta long heel will help you cut straight lines.  The longer the heel the more it will magnify your mistakes in hand movement.   The point of the heel is a fulcrum point.  Think about it. A heel should not be over .020 long.

[Chowmi]

It is a fallacy to think tha ta long heel will help you cut straight lines.  The longer the heel the more it will magnify your mistakes in hand movement.   The point of the heel is a fulcrum point.  Think about it. A heel should not be over .020 long.

Thank you Jerry, that just made a "lightbulb over my head" moment for me.
Not my thread, but I have had similar problems to Mark and what you said makes a ton of sense when I finally thought about it.

Norm.

[L. Akers]

I had another thought.  You might try John Shipper's engraving method.  He is a self-taught engraver who also struggles with physical problems.  I am going to assume you are right-handed and hold the graver in your left and drive it from right to left, like the rest of us.  Shipper's method is to hold the graver in your right hand between the thumb and first two fingers.  The hammer is held "choked up" with the head held between the thumb and forefinger of the left hand.  The graver is driven TOWARD your body.  John maintains it is easier to stay on your lines, because you are looking down the length of the line, and by using the middle finger under the graver as a spacer the depth is also more easily controlled.  John's book Engraving Historic Arms  ain't cheap but is worth having even if you don't adopt his method.

[Mr. Bubbles]

Not on the OP's point, but related; What do you think about using carbide gravers?

[T*O*F]

You might try John Shipper's engraving method.

Actually, it's not his method.  It's known as the "Japanese method" since that's how they have been engraving for generations.  There are a few people here who engrave that way.  It's sometimes useful for doing certain areas that defy doing the regular way and is a useful skill to acquire.

[jerrywh]

 When I first stated engraving I used the hammer and chisel method and held my chisel both ways. When holding the chisel by the so called Japanese method it forces you to look at the face of the graver. That is the important part.  Since then I discovered a very important thing that I always teach my students. When engraving, especially a straight line, Always look at the face of the graver. Do not look down over the graver from the back like some do. This little tip will help you a lot.  Lynton McKenzie Also made a good point in his video. When a line is uneven in width go back and shave the narrow parts of the line to even it out. This can be done by simply tilting the graver to the side a bit and shaving the side of the line as required. Believe me many of the best engravers are going back and shaving the lines to even them out.

[Mark Elliott]

Jerry those are great tips.   I took an engraving course from John Shippers.   So,  I learned his method.   I switch back and forth depending on the circumstance.     Short straight lines are easier engraving toward you.

[Mike Brooks]

Are you engraving brass? sand cast and sheet Brass has always been a challenge for me. I can usually get going right by lessening the angle on the front of the graver. I learned from Lynton MacKenzie. ( I was a poor student ) He  did stress there is nothing wrong with going back over your work and straightening every thing up, both straight runs and curves. I have watched both Mark Silver and Bruce LePage go back over their lines to get them "right".
 If you're doing American LR work don't sweat it too much, take a look at the KRA DVD's and see how bad most American KY rifle engraving actually is.

[Mark Elliott]

Mike,

My only saving grace is that my work is as bad as the originals, and some people must think it is on purpose.