Seeking input on rifle ancestor used

[mstriebel]

Dear All,

I apologize if this is not the right place to put this post, but I thought the seeking the insights from the antique rifle experts on this site would be the best place to start with my question.

An ancestor of mine was with James Harrod's party that founded Harrodsburg, Kentucky in 1774.   I am seeking to have a custom longrifle made that would be a fair representation of the one he carried with him at the time.  Unfortunately, as that rifle is long since gone, all I have to go on is some basic research and a lot of speculation.  Before I invest the considerable amount to have this rifle made, I thought it would be good to get some input from those on the forum with more experience and knowledge than me in such matters. 

My ancestor was born in 1754, in what was then Frederick County, Virginia, (now Jefferson County, in the far northeastern corner of West Virginia.)  His father died when he was young and as the fifth child in the family, there was no land remaining for him to inherit.  Therefore, at the age of 17, he took his remaining monetary inheritance of 5 1/2 pounds that his stepfather had not yet spent and moved west to what is now Washington Township, Pennsylvania, about 30 miles southwest of Fort Pitt.  In Washington County, he used all he had to purchase some land and establish a small farm.  Apparently, by 1774 he had had enough of farming as he said, "In March, 1774, I understood that Captain James Harrod was going down the Ohio in search of land to settle on, & was to start in a few days. When I heard this news I was felling a very large black ash tree for rails to enlarge my little farm, & the thought of the accumulation of more land & probably a better country so struck me that I hid my mall & wedges & took my axe & immediately prepared to go."

With this scant information, I would appreciate any thoughts the experts on the forum might have on the following:

1) Would the style of rifle my ancestor had in 1774 more likely have been made in Virginia where he originally came from or would one of the styles of rifle from Pennsylvania be more likely since he settled near Fort Pitt?
2) Regardless of whether the rifle was Virginia or Pennsylvania made, am I right to assume that its stock would most likely have been maple?
3) My ancestor was definitely of modest means, so would that have made it more likely:
           a) that his rifle used iron hardware rather than brass hardware?
           b) that it used a wooden patch box, or none at all instead of a metal patch box?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Best,

Matt

[brokenflint]

I'll let someone more knowledgeable than me comment on the type/style of "rifle" etc, but I have a question on the research.  Is the quote from your ancestor from a journal he keep?  If so I for one would love to see more of it, as would many others on this site

Ed

[Mike Brooks]

As broke as that kid was he probably had a cheap british import fowling gun of some sort. Locally made rifles were comparatively fairly expensive.

[Seth Isaacson]

I lean towards Mike's estimation. Rifles would have been too expensive and less useful for most poor farmers. A fowling piece imported from England was also more utilitarian but still likely out of his means. He very well may have had no firearm at all when he first went to Pennsylvania or had something older that someone had passed down to him, likely an older fowling gun. If he only had 5 1/2 pounds to start out with and spent almost all of it on land as you suggested, a rifle seems out of the question. He may have upgraded to something nicer as he improved his economic situation though, but if he did own a rifle, I'd guess it was still something pretty plain from Pennsylvania.

Personally, I'd look at having an aged looking 1750s fowling gun of the type his father might have had to pass on to him.

Check out this older post for some ideas on the costs of guns in the period.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14168.0


Also as Ed stated, please let us know if and where we can see more of the journal as that would be very interesting to many of us and/or share it if you can/would like to.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  .... Well , Mike... While your thoughts are acceptable, even a poor young man could acquire a decent rifle-gun if he was determined ... through barter, work, or even less honourable ways ..... Here in Tennessee D. Crockett worked hard for a man to obtain his first rifle .... Made in Pennsylvania by "Dickert" as I recall .... Therefore, my thought is that a young man on the frontier planning a trip to the wilderness would have had much conversation with Harrod's company, and would have acquired a rifle-gun.... not the newest and best probably, but serviceable .... btw,.... the fowler would have made the trip too ....., so I would suggest a Pennsylvania rifle ... plain or decorated, "aged" to reflect much use prior to his ownership .....

[Pukka Bundook]

Quote,

"down the Ohio in search of land to settle on, & was to start in a few days. When I heard this news I was felling a very large black ash tree for rails to enlarge my little farm, & the thought of the accumulation of more land & probably a better country so struck me that I hid my mall & wedges & took my axe & immediately prepared to go."

It sounds in the above that he had an axe. 

Not trying to be facetious in the above, but many poorer folks didn't have much at all for a start.
Sometimes joining onto an expedition like this, they'd get the loan of a gun.
I'm sure I recall early longhunters being issued with guns/rifles, and at the end of the trip, they could pay and keep them or hand them back.  Same may have applied here.
It is Very interesting that you have some information on your ancestor!  Very rare. 

I'd go with a plain working rifle, if you can imagine the type that may have been loaned out once or twice before he got it.
Think what the tools look like from the rental shop!   

[Dennis Glazener]

What's so interesting to me is to find out what his entire net worth was at the time, what was left of his FATHERS estate. Sounds like the 4 older children got all the land and maybe some of the money, but there was 5 1/2 pounds left for him. Stop and think what that is in today's funds, about the price of a rifle gun!

He had to foot the bill to get himself from W VA to 30 miles west of Ft Pitt  probably 75 to 100 miles or more not too far, but maybe walking, he had to eat, maybe bought a horse? Makes sense that he may have purchased some old fowling piece to protect himself and to provide enough small game to keep from starving to death until he finally reached his destination. You know he would not have spent all his money on a rifle. Later he evidently had enough money left to buy land then a axe and wedge. Probably also had something like a grubbing hoe to help clear the land. Then he had to have horse/plow to work the land. Not sure of the prices of these tools but I doubt they were cheap in that area.

So often we forget how poor many of our early ancestors were. We think of them with a cabin, crude but efficient household items, hand tools, land to work and tools/animals to work the land with. Some type of gun, ammo we don't think much about how were they able to accumulate all these items when many of them left home with nothing or next to nothing!
Dennis

His father died when he was young and as the fifth child in the family, there was no land remaining for him to inherit.  Therefore, at the age of 17, he took his remaining monetary inheritance of 5 1/2 pounds that his stepfather had not yet spent and moved west to what is now Washington Township, Pennsylvania, about 30 miles southwest of Fort Pitt.

[bones92]

As the OP's ancestor could have had any number of long guns, I would probably lean toward something that would be both reasonably affordable and of utility in that period of time, whether it be rifle or fowler.    OP should get something plain but nice, something that appeals to him and could have plausibly been owned by his ancestor.    Remember, you will be shooting the gun, not your ancestor, so get something proper for that period but that you also want to shoot.

[Seth Isaacson]

What's so interesting to me is to find out what his entire net worth was at the time, what was left of his FATHERS estate. Sounds like the 4 older children got all the land and maybe some of the money, but there was 5 1/2 pounds left for him. Stop and think what that is in today's funds, about the price of a rifle gun!

He had to foot the bill to get himself from W VA to 30 miles west of Ft Pitt  probably 75 to 100 miles or more not too far, but maybe walking, he had to eat, maybe bought a horse? Makes sense that he may have purchased some old fowling piece to protect himself and to provide enough small game to keep from starving to death until he finally reached his destination. You know he would not have spent all his money on a rifle. Later he evidently had enough money left to buy land then a axe and wedge. Probably also had something like a grubbing hoe to help clear the land. Then he had to have horse/plow to work the land. Not sure of the prices of these tools but I doubt they were cheap in that area.

So often we forget how poor many of our early ancestors were. We think of them with a cabin, crude but efficient household items, hand tools, land to work and tools/animals to work the land with. Some type of gun, ammo we don't think much about how were they able to accumulate all these items when many of them left home with nothing or next to nothing!
Dennis

Look up primogeniture if you're more interested in how inheritance worked and favored eldest sons if you aren't already familiar with the subject. Its a rather bad situation for younger sons and of course daughters (especially unmarried daughters) but was in-part intended to keep family estates intact. It gets a lot more complicated than that though. Elder sons were generally expected to take on the role of patriarch, support their widowed mothers, support any unmarried sisters, and help out their younger brothers. This of course was all a lot harder for poorer folk, but at least in the colonies land was generally available and relatively inexpensive though the frontier was of course contested and dangerous. We don't know for sure what else his ancestor received, but his older brother and other relatives may have provided some tools, possibly even a gun, or some additional funds to get him started.

As the OP's ancestor could have had any number of long guns, I would probably lean toward something that would be both reasonably affordable and of utility in that period of time, whether it be rifle or fowler.    OP should get something plain but nice, something that appeals to him and could have plausibly been owned by his ancestor.    Remember, you will be shooting the gun, not your ancestor, so get something proper for that period but that you also want to shoot.

Definitely a good point. There isn't much point of owning it if you don't enjoy it.

[mstriebel]

Gentlemen,

I don’t post on the forum much, but when I do I know I will leave a some more knowledge and better insight.  Many thanks to you all for the great input.    As Mr. Glazener said, in our world of central heating, cell phones, and the Internet, its sobering to think of how desperately poor so many of our ancestors were, and how much we owe our comforts to the many sacrifices they made. 

I always had it in my mind the stereotype that all of Harrod’s men set out with longrifles.  I don’t know why I never thought about Mr. Brooks’ idea of a fowling gun being the most likely firearm for a poor young man on the frontier.  Based on the average price of a rifle in the area at the time of a rifle at 4 to 6 pounds+ according to the link The Rambling Historian provided and considering that an imported British fowler cost 1/4th that amount, it would seem a very strong likelihood that up until the spring of 1774, my ancestor was using a fowler.

However, Cades Cove Fiddler makes a good point.  If I was setting of on the Ohio in 1774 heading into a largely unknown region with a very real fear that the Shawnee might take my scalp, I would make @!*% sure that I did whatever I could to take with me the best weapon possible.  We know that after my ancestor left Pennsylvania in 1774, he never returned.  It can then only be assumed that he sold off his small farm and whatever he could not take with him before setting off.  He was able to get in a corn harvest in 1773, so that with that and whatever else he was able to scrounge up by selling off his farm and other large possessions it just might have been enough for him to afford a plain Pennsylvania rifle – albeit on that had been “loaned out once or twice before he got it”.

I have had the Devil’s own time finding any specific documentation on the weapons that James Harrod’s men took with them.  Little did I realize how few examples of a working man’s gun there are from the 1770s.  It’s likely a long shot, but I have reached out to the “Friends of Fort Harrod” to see if they might be assist with any specific more information.  I definitely go with Bones92 suggestion and not forget that I need keep in mind that I want a firearm that I want to use on a regular basis.

Ed, in regards to the research on my ancestor, its bits and pieces that I have picked up over the years, in researching my 6th Great Grandfather, Capt. Abraham Chapline.  While was not an especially famous man, is someone I idolized since I was a boy for his toughness and accomplishments, so researching his life has been an ongoing hobby of mine.  Sadly, I do not have any of his original papers.  The passage I included in my original post came from the Lyman Draper manuscripts stored at the University of Wisconsin.  Draper interviewed one of Chapline’s son’s for his narrative.  Draper weaves in and out from speaking in the first and third person in his narrative on Abraham Chapline.  I believe it’s not unreasonable to assume that Chapline’s son was quoting from a journal his father kept in those passages in which Draper wrote in the first person.  A personal journal may have existed for Abraham Chapline at one time, but I have not been able to tract it down.

After the Revolutionary War started, Abraham joined George Rogers Clark’s Illinois Regiment of Virginia and took part in the capture of Kaskaskia and recapture of Vincennes.  In the fall of 1779, while transporting supplies and British prisoners back to Pittsburgh, he was ambushed by a group of warriors under the command of British Indian Agent, Matthew Elliot.  After being forced to run the gauntlet several times, he impressed the Wyandott enough with his courage to be adopted into their tribe.  He was then taken to live with them near Sandusky, Ohio.  In the spring, he learned the tribes were assembling to mount a major invasion of the Kentucky settlements led the British 8th Regt under Col. Bird.  He managed to escape and travel more than 300 miles on foot back to Kentucky in three weeks to warn of the invasion.  The man had grit.

One of my favorite stories of Chapline comes from a reminiscence told in the following letter written by an elderly Kentucky gentleman by the name of W.B. Harrison in 1884

o   "Having been a Captain in the Revolutionary War, after its conclusion, he (Abraham Chapline) was sent with a company of men to Kaskaskia in what is now the state of Illinois to operate as a check upon the Indians. While therein a fortification consisting of a number of cabins called block-houses, he gave some order to which James Whitecotton, one of his men, took exception, and said to some of the men, if he was on equal terms with his Captain, he would whip him for certain for that order. The Captain (Abraham Chapline) having learned that Whitecotton was chafing under the supposed injury, called his men up and said to Whitecotton, ‘I learn that you take exception to my order and resent that you are not on equal term with me so as to obtain satisfaction; now if the men of this company will pledge their honor to keep the matter a perfect secret until we shall be mustered out of the service, I will cheerfully lay down my commission long enough to give you the desired satisfaction.”

"Of course the promise of secrecy was quickly given, and the two men weighing each about 145 pounds went easily into the settlement with their fists. Finally, the Captain threw Whitecotton, who finding he was overpowered, spoke the word "enough!" and the affair was ended. From that time forth so long as those men lived, they were the most devoted friends.

"Whitecotton was a poor thriftless man, and I knew him to be over 99 years of age. He and his Captain resided more than 30 miles apart, but once a year Whitecotton walked that distance to spend a week or two with his former Captain who was always glad to see him."(letter of W B Harrison, 1884)

[Mike Brooks]

Your relatives and mine were buds. You're probably familiar through your research with Richard Rue and George Holman. Both young men went into the Illinois country with Clark and were captured by the Shawnee...if I recall in 1779? I might be wrong on the capture date. I believe they were ransomed by Clark himself in '81 or '83...again I may be wrong on the ransom date as well. Neither of them were well treated well by their captors and suffered for the rest of their lives due to their treatment during capture. Much of this comes from the Draper manuscripts as well.

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi Matt,

This won't help you on your gun quest, but I thought you would like this info about a little town near my grandparents farm in Nelson County, Kentucky. 

Chaplin is a Nelson county town on US 62 near the Chaplin River, about 15 miles northeast of Bardstown. The name comes from Captain Abraham Chapline, an early explorer of the area. Chaplin was incorporated in 1850, but was later dissolved. The Chaplin (or Chapline) post office opened in 1832. The population in 2010 was 418.

-Ron

[Pukka Bundook]

Matt,

What an Interesting read!

Thank you for sharing it with us.

Richard.

[Martin S.]

Great thread, and great history.

Thanks for posting.

Let us know what type of rifle/smoothbore you decide on.

[Elnathan]

1) Would the style of rifle my ancestor had in 1774 more likely have been made in Virginia where he originally came from or would one of the styles of rifle from Pennsylvania be more likely since he settled near Fort Pitt?
2) Regardless of whether the rifle was Virginia or Pennsylvania made, am I right to assume that its stock would most likely have been maple?
3) My ancestor was definitely of modest means, so would that have made it more likely:
           a) that his rifle used iron hardware rather than brass hardware?
           b) that it used a wooden patch box, or none at all instead of a metal patch box?

Since no one has answered these questions specifically, I'll take a shot at it:

1) Good question. PA is probably the safest bet, as the PA makers were producing the lion's share of the longrifles and exporting them everywhere. OTOH, Winchester, Frederick County, happened to be a rifle-making center of some note as well. If your ancestor had a rifle before he moved (does that 5 1/2 pounds figure encompass everything he owned or is it just cash in hand?) than a VA rifle is plausible, though he still might have had a PA import.
2) Maple is the most likely choice.
3) Brass. Iron was around, I believe, but was limited to some specific areas of SW Virginia (except for one rifle I'm told is from SC). Iron wouldn't be cheaper than brass anyway - brass could be easily and economically cast once the master was made, whereas iron mounts had to be forged individually every time.
As for the box: I believe wooden box lids were less expensive than brass. Rifles without any box at all were not all that common at the time, though a few have survived.

If you are looking for a suggestion, it is hard to go wrong with a basic Lancaster. They seem to have gotten everywhere and were so common that the British copied them to give to the Indians.  If you want to go VA, you might want to look at the Haymaker rifle shown in Rifles of Colonial America Vol. II - that one ended up in Kentucky in 1774....

[mstriebel]

Elnathan,

Your answers help a great deal.

As near as we can tell, 5 ½ pounds is about all my ancestor had in the world when he moved to Washington Co., Pennsylvania at the age of 17.  I agree with what other members on the forum have said in that if he took any firearm with him when he traveled from Virginia to Pennsylvania, it was likely nothing more than an old fowler.  Therefore, a Virginia rifle seems less likely.  Assuming he had enough scrounged up from the sale of his farm and possessions before he took off with Harrod’s party to afford a rifle, your suggestion of a second-hand Lancaster rifle in maple rings true to me. 

I especially want to thank you for the education on iron versus brass hardware and wood patch boxes.  I suppose I had in my mind’s eye the notion that a poor man’s rifle in the mid-1770s would mimic in a lot of ways a southern poor boy rifle.  I assumed that brass would have more expensive and less likely on a working man’s rifle, but then I had never really thought through the economics of casting brass versus forging iron. 

So, a simple maple stocked early Lancaster with a wooden patch box, swamped barrel, minimal embellishment, and a well-used appearance it is. 

Thanks,

Matt

[Goo]

Poor white people also might have used home made bows w/arrows, snares and fish traps. He might have made the trip with no gun at all ........

[Elnathan]

Poor white people also might have used home made bows w/arrows, snares and fish traps. He might have made the trip with no gun at all ........

I'd be really interested in any documentation for 18th century whites using bows and arrows along the frontier and/or backcountry (i.e., not target shooting in London).

[Robby]

This is the 1800's Elnathan but a very good read all the same. Its also available on amazon.
Robby

[Elnathan]

This is the 1800's Elnathan but a very good read all the same. Its also available on amazon.
Robby

I think you forgot a link there. If it is The Witchery of Archery, though, I am already familiar with it. It is post-CW, though, when archery was being revived as a sport and hunting method, and not really applicable to the 18th and early 19th century frontier, IMHO.

[Robby]

Yep, thats the book, and yep, I forgot to post the link. Still a good read though.
Robby
https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/witchery/

[Don Adams]

Could he have sold his farm for a decent firearm?