Author Topic: Cap or Flint?  (Read 10194 times)

Lead ball 54

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Cap or Flint?
« on: January 11, 2018, 07:38:02 PM »
Okay so I said in an earlier post I was getting back into Smoke poles and all I have ever shot is cap locks I am seriously thinking about going flint but not sure if I can afford something with a nice enough lock any and all advice would be greatly appreciated my budget is right around 400 to 500 dollars I know that's not much but that's it thanks

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2018, 07:54:00 PM »
You won't be able to find a new gun with a good lock for that price. You could get lucky and find something used.

 I'll be honest. I don't trust a flintlock with my life. I like them and think they're fun to shoot, but I won't hunt with them. Maybe if all I hunted was deer I would, but not for bear which is what I hunt for the most. Bear are in the thick brush in this area. I'm still hunting for them and my shots are sudden and close face to face. I don't trust a flinter in that situation. Especially, when it's wet. Which is common in Sept when the bear hunt is on.

 I use what I think is the most reliable sidelock. A caplock with 3F and a musket cap. It has never failed me. I'm finicky about everything being clean and dry. My life depends on it. I've been charged many times and i'm getting pretty old to fight a bear with a bowie knife if my gun fails. Although i'd sure try.

 You'll get lots of guys here telling you a flintlock is reliable and caplocks fail them. I'm sure it is for them. It will be your choice. I can only give my opinion.

 Everybody be honest. Who has never got a slow fire, misfire, or god forbid a flash in the pan in their flintlock in the last 250 shots they've taken? I'm sure some can, but can everybody? I can say it for more than 250 shots in a caplock.

Black Hand

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2018, 08:00:26 PM »
I'll be honest. I don't trust a flintlock with my life. I like them and think they're fun to shoot, but I won't hunt with them. Maybe if all I hunted was deer I would, but not for bear which is what I hunt for the most. Bear are in the thick brush in this area. I'm still hunting for them and my shots are sudden and close face to face. I don't trust a flinter in that situation. Especially, when it's wet. Which is common in Sept when the bear hunt is on.
I've hunted with flintlocks in everything from sunny weather to driving rain to blowing snow. They are just as, or more reliable than, a caplock. As with any other muzzleloader - if you do your part, it will do its part.

I do agree an inexpensive flintlock can be problematic. I'm also convinced that people with negative opinions about flintlocks bought an inexpensive flintlock and found they got value & quality equal to the price they paid. Save your money and buy quality - you won't regret the decision.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:03:49 PM by Black Hand »

Offline thelongrifle

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2018, 08:06:53 PM »
At our club shoots I see as many misfires with caplocks as I do flintlocks. These are from shooters with many years experience. On a shoot with a lot of rain I was able to get my flintlock to fire for enough shots to finish the shoot.  Some of both caplocks and flintlock shooters did not.

If properly cared for either one will fire. If not maybe.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2018, 08:24:53 PM »
Okay so I said in an earlier post I was getting back into Smoke poles and all I have ever shot is cap locks I am seriously thinking about going flint but not sure if I can afford something with a nice enough lock any and all advice would be greatly appreciated my budget is right around 400 to 500 dollars I know that's not much but that's it thanks
A good flint lock is now $200. That's just the lock, nothing else. Barrels are 250-300, a basic stick of wood is 100. A set of brass mounts are 40 to 60 dollars. Then you have to find somebody to put it all together.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:27:47 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 08:32:53 PM »
I don't want to argue, but let me make one more point.

To be 100% reliable you need a top end flint lock. What does that tell you about which is more reliable? Any production caplock is reliable if you do your part which you still have to do with an expensive flint lock.

Lead ball 54

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 08:40:47 PM »
So I guess I stick with cap locks cause the only reason I have gun money is I sold my last revolver and my situation doesn't a low me to save much money at all so I will keep looking for a good GPR 54 or a Renagde something like that I kind of figured I was way short on funds for a good flint what about putting a good flint lock on say a GPR or TC hawkin

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2018, 08:45:58 PM »
So I guess I stick with cap locks cause the only reason I have gun money is I sold my last revolver and my situation doesn't a low me to save much money at all so I will keep looking for a good GPR 54 or a Renagde something like that I kind of figured I was way short on funds for a good flint what about putting a good flint lock on say a GPR or TC hawkin


Sure you can. You can do anything with a little work. Better to start with a gun that's already a flintlock. Buy one and see how you like flintlocks. If you like it you can always upgrade the lock.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2018, 09:06:24 PM »
OldMtnMan has made some valid points and has also demonstrated his predudice toward percussion.  But it's true...if you buy an inexpensive production flintlock, such as a Lyman GPR or a T/C Hawken, you will likely experience frustration getting reliable ignition...maybe not.  I've seen it both ways with guns of that type.  But percussion guns of that same value, ie:  GPR's and T/C Hawkens are just as unreliable.  Both of those have coil spring mainsprings which are flabby and weak.  I wouldn't trust my life to either of them in percussion or flint.  But you are not going to get the quality you seek for $500.  I would steer completely away from production muzzle loaders if quality is important to you.  But that is I.
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2018, 09:20:23 PM »
OldMtnMan has made some valid points and has also demonstrated his predudice toward percussion.  But it's true...if you buy an inexpensive production flintlock, such as a Lyman GPR or a T/C Hawken, you will likely experience frustration getting reliable ignition...maybe not.  I've seen it both ways with guns of that type.  But percussion guns of that same value, ie:  GPR's and T/C Hawkens are just as unreliable.  Both of those have coil spring mainsprings which are flabby and weak.  I wouldn't trust my life to either of them in percussion or flint.  But you are not going to get the quality you seek for $500.  I would steer completely away from production muzzle loaders if quality is important to you.  But that is I.

You're right. I am biased towards caplocks. Probably because my favorite rifle is the half stock Hawken. As far as I can tell they were all caplocks.

 I also agree the production caplock locks are crapola with coil springs. I change them out for a better lock. You flintlock shooters thought you were the only ones who wanted a good lock?  ;)

Black Hand

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2018, 09:40:00 PM »
OldMtnMan:
Blanket statements (such as you made above) are the problem. Essentially, you have stated that caplocks are the bestest ever and that flintlocks are cr@p. What if I was to say: Caplocks are the bike with training wheels of the muzzleloading world and only real men shoot flintlocks? When stated this way, you see how absurd blanket statements are...

The flintlock ignition system (in some form or another) has been in use for 200-400 years, while the caplock mechanism was rendered obsolete in less than 50 years.

How about just giving facts (rather than personal bias) and allow others the opportunity to make their own decision.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 09:45:57 PM by Black Hand »

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2018, 09:54:31 PM »
OldMtnMan:
Blanket statements (such as you made above) are the problem. Essentially, you have stated that caplocks are the bestest ever and that flintlocks are cr@p. What if I was to say: Caplocks are the bike with training wheels of the muzzleloading world and only real men shoot flintlocks? When stated this way, you see how absurd blanket statements are...

The flintlock ignition system (in some form or another) has been in use for 200-400 years, while the caplock mechanism was rendered obsolete in less than 50 years.

How about just giving facts (rather than personal bias) and allow others the opportunity to make their own decision.


I'm no more biased than you are. Actually, less than you are. I've owned flintlocks and will again. Can you say that about a caplock?

Also, it seems to me that the caplock made the flintlock obsolete and why do you think the caplock died out and the flintlock kept going? They both died out and CF took over. Haven't you noticed? Only the die hards like us continue to shoot sidelocks.

I told you why I like a caplock. I didn't say it was better. I said I like it better. Especially, when my life is on the line. Excuse me if you don't think that's important.

JVavrek

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2018, 10:13:49 PM »
I've been using a T/C Hawken flintlock for 38 years and have never had a problem with the lock that was not my fault. You can find a used TC Hawken in the price range you have. there are others out there too but i will not comment on them because i have never used them. Same as the percussion.  Get what you can afford. Here in PA we have a late flintlock season and I'll bet that most of the smokepoles out there in the woods at this time are production guns.

Black Hand

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2018, 10:15:37 PM »
OldMtnMan:
Blanket statements (such as you made above) are the problem. Essentially, you have stated that caplocks are the bestest ever and that flintlocks are cr@p. What if I was to say: Caplocks are the bike with training wheels of the muzzleloading world and only real men shoot flintlocks? When stated this way, you see how absurd blanket statements are...

The flintlock ignition system (in some form or another) has been in use for 200-400 years, while the caplock mechanism was rendered obsolete in less than 50 years.

How about just giving facts (rather than personal bias) and allow others the opportunity to make their own decision.


I'm no more biased than you are. Actually, less than you are. I've owned flintlocks and will again. Can you say that about a caplock?
Yes - I started with a caplock. I still have it too and lend it out to beginners.

Also, it seems to me that the caplock made the flintlock obsolete and why do you think the caplock died out and the flintlock kept going? They both died out and CF took over. Haven't you noticed? Only the die hards like us continue to shoot sidelocks.
No - the caplock did not replace the flintlock. The caplock was an off-shoot quickly replaced. Why? Because of the corrosive and unreliable caps. Neither ignition system or sidelocks died out...

I told you why I like a caplock. I didn't say it was better. I said I like it better. Especially, when my life is on the line. Excuse me if you don't think that's important.
I hunt in country populated by Black Bears, Grizzly Bears, Mountain Lions and Wolves. If it's personal safety you want - carry a 44 magnum or stay home...

ddoyle

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2018, 10:46:05 PM »
Watch gunbroker for an older Lyman deerstalker. Used/unfired ones are the biggest bargain in Muzzleloaders and sell for well under your budget.  Spend 300 dollars on one that is minty and perfect. That leaves you 150 for powder- ball and some gas money for range time. If your hesitant- reflect on the fact that the first rifle in America was likely an Italian gun.






Black Hand

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2018, 11:03:59 PM »
If your hesitant- reflect on the fact that the first rifle in America was likely an Italian gun.
If a rifle, more likely German...

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2018, 11:41:09 PM »
OldMtnMan:
Blanket statements (such as you made above) are the problem. Essentially, you have stated that caplocks are the bestest ever and that flintlocks are cr@p. What if I was to say: Caplocks are the bike with training wheels of the muzzleloading world and only real men shoot flintlocks? When stated this way, you see how absurd blanket statements are...

The flintlock ignition system (in some form or another) has been in use for 200-400 years, while the caplock mechanism was rendered obsolete in less than 50 years.

How about just giving facts (rather than personal bias) and allow others the opportunity to make their own decision.


I'm no more biased than you are. Actually, less than you are. I've owned flintlocks and will again. Can you say that about a caplock?
Yes - I started with a caplock. I still have it too and lend it out to beginners.

Also, it seems to me that the caplock made the flintlock obsolete and why do you think the caplock died out and the flintlock kept going? They both died out and CF took over. Haven't you noticed? Only the die hards like us continue to shoot sidelocks.
No - the caplock did not replace the flintlock. The caplock was an off-shoot quickly replaced. Why? Because of the corrosive and unreliable caps. Neither ignition system or sidelocks died out...

I told you why I like a caplock. I didn't say it was better. I said I like it better. Especially, when my life is on the line. Excuse me if you don't think that's important.
I hunt in country populated by Black Bears, Grizzly Bears, Mountain Lions and Wolves. If it's personal safety you want - carry a 44 magnum or stay home...

Wrong in so many ways, but I don't want to argue about it. You use what you like and i'll do the same.

 I know your type and i'm not interested.

Black Hand

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2018, 11:47:32 PM »
Wrong in so many ways, but I don't want to argue about it.
This is equivalent to the playground Neener, neener - I'm right and you're wrong.
Please provide evidence supporting your claim...
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 11:54:09 PM by Black Hand »

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2018, 11:53:10 PM »
If I give you one example will you go away?

Black Hand

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2018, 11:54:50 PM »
If I give you one example will you go away?
No. I am free to share what I know as are you.
I am also willing to learn, and if good/reputable data is provided, even change my mind. Are you?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 11:56:59 PM by Black Hand »

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 12:08:59 AM »
The difference in us is I have no bias against flintlocks. I like them and plan on another one when I can afford a nice long rifle. They don't fit in with my like of the Hawken. The half stock Hawken was never a flintlock.

I happen to think the sidelock is more reliable and I base it on experience with both. I'm not afraid of the bears. I worked a gold claim in Alaska deep in the heart of grizz country. I liked in a small tent and had a gazillion encounters with them day and night. I'm not bothered by it. I've never had a fear of man or beast. Maybe that's not smart, but it's how I am. No, it's not fear of the bear that I use a caplock. It's wanting to kill the bear. I can't do that if the gun misfires. So, you got why I use a caplock wrong.

That's my one example. I have stuff to do. You work on the rest. In the end we won't change each others mind, so let's drop it. The OP will use what he likes. Both ignitions work. One takes a little more work, but they both work fine. I prefer to my effort into the hunt instead of the gun.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2018, 12:17:33 AM »
Now fellas,
We shouldn't get our knickers in a twist over who thinks what. 
We know that the flint/detonator argument went on forever originally, and can still do that .
 
I prefer flint, but know how reliable a detonator is and own a few.   Muskets using the big caps are very reliable, but I have had a few miss-fires even with them. Had a few miss/flashes with a Good (Chambers) flintlock as well.
I think for me, I get a certain amount of peace of mind in Seeing the powder at the touchhole of a flintlock;
With a percussion, I don't know For Sure it has arrived where it should.
There are ways to ensure the powder Has got where it should, and in Old mountainman's bear hunting, I'd be making very sure!

I recall a thunderstorm once when we had a 40-odd shot trail-walk.  Kept coming 'round and trying to drowned us again!
I think in our group of 6, mine (Flint) was the only one that kept working.  the percussions and another flint or so all packed up.
Does that make the flint better?
Maybe, or maybe I got lucky, or maybe the caplocks were rubbish I don't know. 
I must say though, if we get real Familiar with our guns, we will have a whole lot Less trouble with them!...............and I think that's the key.

Had hunted 9 or 10 years straight all weather with my rifle and understood it.  No good shooting in butterfly weather and expecting to learn reliability.
This is same for flint, Percussion or C-F!

(Had C-F fail when bolt froze....)

Didna' mean to preach!  :-)
R

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 12:20:52 AM »
Quote
To be 100% reliable you need a top end flint lock. What does that tell you about which is more reliable? Any production caplock is reliable if you do your part which you still have to do with an expensive flint lock.
Modify message

I have had cheaper cap locks with drum and nipple and top of the line cap lock with drum and nipple. Have had miss-fires with both. My experience with top of the line flint's has been better than with these cap locks.

I had one 32 Hawken Squirrel rifle with a good L&R caplock it had a snail drum or whatever you call it. I rate that one excellent but no better or worse than my Lancaster 54 with Chambers Siler lock. Both of them are extremely dependable.
Dennis

 
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Black Hand

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2018, 12:23:00 AM »
The difference in us is I have no bias against flintlocks.
And I have none against caplocks.
I took exception to your blanket statement...

All the rest isn't evidence to support your claim that caplocks are more reliable - it is anecdotal and contains nothing that could be used to assess reliability. You were better off sticking with your claim of 250+ shots without a misfire...
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 12:30:17 AM by Black Hand »

Offline hanshi

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Re: Cap or Flint?
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2018, 12:48:09 AM »
I own both, like both and shoot both; both have killed lots of deer for me.  But most of mine are flint simply because it's more fun (to me) shooting flint.  But I hunt exclusively with flintlocks for the little bit of extra challenge they offer.  I hunt with them during the regular rifle season and have been doing so for many years.  I have never felt at any disadvantage.  I DO NOT roll -  ::) - my eyes at percussions or feel superior because I hunt with flint.  Why would one even think he is granted a  "superior" status simply due to the fact of shooting flintlocks?  The ownership of any object does not, can not bestow status; one is either born with it or has earned it.  Status can come via other people, in some instances, but not from a material thing.  I can just say that I prefer flintlocks and be done with it.
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