Heavy calibre long distance shooting

[Old Ford2]

Do any of you fellows find an advantage in shooting long distance with .58 or bigger as compared to shooting long distance with .45 to .54.
What I mean by long distance, I mean 100 yds. to 150 + yds.
My .58 shoots very well at 75+ yds. not effected with slight side breeze as shooting my .45 cal. rifles.
I have two barrels waiting for a stock to be completed. One in .69 and one in .75, I have never shot guns of these calibre before.
Fred

[Robby]

Rifled? You're in for a real treat, stop in at the dentist and get your fillings tightened.
Robby

[Pukka Bundook]

Larger calibres shoot very well at reasonable range, but tend to drop off a bit more  for longer shots. 
For some reason we can usually hit the 200 yard gongs with .76 cal original muskets, but that was with  125 grs of powder  and aiming high!
To be honest, I think .58 is about as big as can be made use of, Unless you are shooting dangerous game, then the bigger the ball the better, and only close shots taken.  (Plus plenty of powder.)

[okawbow]

My .62 cal. Hawken style rifle with an adjustable buckhorn sight, would ring the frying pan at 200 yards every shot. I used an unreasonably high powder charge, and had to shoot from a sitting or offhand position because of the recoil. Even shot a deer at 200 yards with it.

[smylee grouch]

Most dedicated bench rest shooters shoot 58 or bigger cal out to 200 yds. with slow twist/heavy charge( 200 gr. +) A lot of those rifles will weigh 40+ pounds.

[Bob Roller]

Do any of you fellows find an advantage in shooting long distance with .58 or bigger as compared to shooting long distance with .45 to .54.
What I mean by long distance, I mean 100 yds. to 150 + yds.
My .58 shoots very well at 75+ yds. not effected with slight side breeze as shooting my .45 cal. rifles.
I have two barrels waiting for a stock to be completed. One in .69 and one in .75, I have never shot guns of these calibre before.
Fred

Back in the mid 18andwhenevers, the Brits figured out the .451 with a 530 grain bullet was the best
long range load of the day using about 85 grains of high quality black powder.A few 40's were tried
but the .451 is still the dominant long range muzzle loader.I know the definition of "long range" has
has changed with advances in gun making and serious experimentation like that of Joseph Whitworth
pretty well,along with his contemporaries brought the long range muzzle loader to its final conclusion.
Identical loads in brass cases carried black powder to its final conclusion until revival in our time.
I started with muzzle loaders in 1951 with a $20 purchase of a fine Enfield carbine and was shortly
thereafter initiated into round ball shooting and a 100 yard offhand match was considered long range
and most were shot at 25-50 yards and it was fun.
Here in America the real long range muzzle loader lay dormant until advocates like Bill Roberts from
Alabama started stirring interest in these rifles about 20?years ago.That interest spread to a small
number of shooters,including me.I had a fine Whitworth/Henry semi military .451 from 1962 until 1973
and while it stirred no interest other than my own it was an idea from long ago that finally was seen
as a potential "new"venue for black powder in our time and I give Bill Roberts full credit for it's come
back in our time.It started or perhaps revived a long forgotten method of shooting beyond distances
normally not associated with muzzle loaders.I made a presentable copy of an Alex Henry using a GM
barrel of .450-.458,Don Brown semi finished stock and butt plate/trigger and guard and my own 4 pin
lock and sights.I shot it one time against the Sharps and Rolling Blocks at 500 meters and one of the
shooters said "If this guy insists on that muzzle loader,we'll have to move the targets in closer".
I told him not to be concerned and in the 5 shot match at 500 meters I got 4 out of 5 and only a
tree branch partially blocking my sight saved the 5th one.The best the others did was 3 hits with the
breech loaders.
My rant is over.

Bob Roller

[smylee grouch]

For any one interested, I think there will be 1000 yd. matches at the NMLRAs Western National Shoot in Phoenix, Az. starting  on Feb. 27 through March 5. These along with about 250 or so other types of matches are held at the Ben Avery shooting complex on the north edge of Phoenix. You can contact the NMLRA for details at 812-667-5131. I think they even had loaner rifles last year.

[Old Ford2]

Well guys, I'm a lot like some of you fellows, long on the tooth, short of breath, C.R.A.T. disease ( can't remember a thing ) and very short on time.
I have shot muzzle loading for over 50 years, but still wish to keep my hands in it.
The BSA Whitworth .451 was an exceptionally fine shooting gun ( never should have sold it!)
However I have the makings for two large bore guns and would like to build them before I can't.
I still shoot thumper 45-70 for squirrels & chipmunks so recoil is not a problem.
Selling the monster guns may be a problem, but I rarely build a gun to sell.
So any help and guidance will be much appreciated.
My goal is a .69 cal. percussion plains rifle ( about 36" length ) with a curly yellow birch stock, and a .75 cal. flint  Yaeger very curly maple with a 42" swamped barrel.
Powder is not a problem, still have about 40 lbs. stashed away.
Testing these guns is never a problem, I invite my ex brother- in -law over for a few beers and then get to shooting, and see what come of it.
Any do's or don'ts will be much appreciated.
Best regards!
Fred

[Daryl]

I've been shooting my .69 since 1986, when Taylor built it for me. Upon seeing it, my work-mate, ordered and received a .75 from Taylor, similar English style pattern rifle.
Keith has now shot dozens of moose with his .75, mostly using a .735" ball and .022" patch, along with from 120gr. to 200gr. powder. The furthest was 150yards if I remember correctly, with most of them inside 75 yards.
I used my rifle for the 200yard shoot we had here on ALR - this summer, we should repeat it.  There was lots of interest was shown the first year, but only Taylor and I submitted targets - interesting.  5 shots any position, 5 shots standing. We shot cross sticks 1st 5, then 5 shots offhand.
The .69, ie: 14 bore rifle, can be fun.

These pictures were taken during that shoot.

[OldMtnMan]

Too much recoil if it ends up pointed at the clouds.

[smylee grouch]

Fred, that sounds like it would be fun to watch. Depending on charges used it might be fun to do too. I'm thinking of a 66 where I can shoot a 400 gr. ball but don't know if I will be able to handle it by the time I get it done. Good luck on your project. 

[Daryl]

My .577 Enfield model 1861, the Musketoon with short 24" bl. using a mere 75gr. 2F GOEX, patched round ball, produced 1,308fps av. at the muzzle and made 3", 5 shot group for me at 100 metres.

The Bill Large, or GRRW .58 barrel on a Hawken made by Taylor (now I'm not sure which barrel make it was) made a number of groups at 100 YARDS back in about 1978 at the Terrace range, of 1 1/2" to 2", all 5-shots.  The load was 140gr. 2F GOEX to 160gr. Curtis and Harvey's 2F.  The C&H was really weak, power wise.

I shot hollow based slugs in that rifle as well, up to 675gr. using 150gr. 2F GOEX for 1,250fps and 165gr. 2F GOEX for 1,325fps.

With 140gr. 2F and .575" ball, .022" denim patch, it made 1,683fps with spit, 10fps spread and 1,736fps with bear grease with 69fps spread.
With 160gr. 2F and .574" ball, .022" denim patch, it made 1,810fps with spit, 8fps spread and 1,867fps with bear grease with 74fps spread.
With 180gr. 2F and .575" ball, .022" denim patch, it made-----------------------------------------------1,951fps with bear grease with 42fps spread.
With 95gr. 2F and .575" ball, .022" denim patch, it made 1,424fps with spit and 48fps spread.

Here's that rifle, picture taken by my friend, now passed, Lester H, Hawkes, at his 'diggin's, near Smither's B.C. 1978.




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[Daryl]

Too much recoil if it ends up pointed at the clouds.

You are not the only one who has said that. 

That shot was only 140gr. 2F. the normal full charge is 165gr. 2F for hunting and long range plinking.

480gr. .682" ball, .030" denim patch (12 ounce).

[OldMtnMan]

I would have liked it when I was younger. Now, if I can't kill it with a .54 the game is too big.

I never thought i'd ever say that, but I never thought i'd get old either. Sigh.....

[Old Ford2]

I've been shooting my .69 since 1986, when Taylor built it for me. Upon seeing it, my work-mate, ordered and received a .75 from Taylor, similar English style pattern rifle.
Keith has now shot dozens of moose with his .75, mostly using a .735" ball and .022" patch, along with from 120gr. to 200gr. powder. The furthest was 150yards if I remember correctly, with most of them inside 75 yards.
I used my rifle for the 200yard shoot we had here on ALR - this summer, we should repeat it.  There was lots of interest was shown the first year, but only Taylor and I submitted targets - interesting.  5 shots any position, 5 shots standing. We shot cross sticks 1st 5, then 5 shots offhand.
The .69, ie: 14 bore rifle, can be fun.

These pictures were taken during that shoot.

That's not recoil.........just shooting at a flying squirrel.
Fred

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Daryl has never been recoil shy, but it has cost him.  Unless I'm out of line here, I think his right shoulder is pretty fubar now.  But I cannot argue about the results he got with heavy big bored rifles.

I'm shooting my new-to-me Joseph Lang rifle, .66 cal with a 406 gr. ball and 86 grains of FFg GOEX.  I do not find the recoil at all objectionable, though I get a yellow bruise after twenty from the bench.  Offhand, it is un-noticeable...the recoil, not the bruise.

[Justin Urbantas]

What kind of load would you guys suggest for a .62 rifle? I just ordered a couple barrels from Charles Burton at FCI barrels.  It's going to be my moose/bear/elk gun.

[OldMtnMan]

What kind of load would you guys suggest for a .62 rifle? I just ordered a couple barrels from Charles Burton at FCI barrels.  It's going to be my moose/bear/elk gun.

Black bear or grizz?

[Justin Urbantas]

Black bear for now. Not sure if I would take the .62 for griz. Probably build a 6 bore or something for grizz.

[OldMtnMan]

Yeah, grizz shouldn't be fooled with. When I was in Alaska living in the bush I had a .458 mag. It's what the guides were using at the time to stop a grizz charge and I copied them. That gun had some punch with a 500gr bullet. Basically an elephant gun.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The accuracy load for my .62 Hawken is 127 gr. FFg GOEX, .022" denim patch with mink oil, and .613" pure lead ball from a .610" Lyman mould.  My rifle weighs 12 pounds, and felt recoil is negligible.

[OldMtnMan]

12lbs!! Do you hunt with that? In the mountains?

[Daryl]

Sounds good to me.  In practice, I watched Taylor shoot a 2 1/2" 5 shot group with that rifle at a measured 200yards. Rest, of course.  He'll likely be able to repeat that come May this year, after he gets a new lens in his right eyeball.
12 pounds is a good weight for a Hawken, especially with the hooked butt plate and decent charges.
There he is, with his guide and with a moose shot with that rifle.
 


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[OldMtnMan]

Yes, 12lbs is great for a Hawken, but not at 75.

Try a 7lb gun with a 495gr NoExcuses bullet and enough powder to get good ballistics. It rattled my brain loose. Now it rattles around.

[Hungry Horse]

Years ago I got beaten in a long gong elimination at the three hundred yard line by a guy shooting a T/C Hawken with a .40 cal. Green Mountain drop in barrel. Me thinks you fellas just like a swift kick in the puss.
 I抦 currently building my nephew a .62 cal. Half stock plains rifle, to hunt elk, and bear with. When I finish it, I抣l get him to test fire it. My days of enjoying a double helping of recoil are pretty much over.

  Hungry Horse