Author Topic: Beginners tools (Read 7613 times)

saltland · « **on:** January 18, 2018, 05:00:24 PM »

In a few months I've decided to start my first attempt at a build.For the the last year I've watched many videos and read many books along with literally reading just about every post on the forum.My question is a basic one.All the videos I've watched the builders whether from a kit or not have a very large selection of tools ...files,rasps etc.,not including power tools.
Looking at that I could easily spend a small fortune just on that.I don't want to invest a huge amount of $ off the bat until I decide this is something I will continue.So as far as a list of tools that are a must what would you guys recommend.I realize everybody's will vary to some degree.Also I have not decided between a kit and a non inletted stock.My goal is to have a project that with slow,meticulous progress will last the better part of a year,so at this point I'm leaning towards the latter.
I also plan to go to the 18th century show at Lewisburg to talk to individuals.
Thanks,
Scott

WKevinD · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2018, 05:12:17 PM »

When at Lewisburg talk to at least these three guys: Jim Keibler, Jim Chambers, Dave Keck. There are lots of others to talk to but these three are actively involved in kits and components and want to sell their stuff and will have opinions on whats needed to complete their products.

Kevin

Stoner creek · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2018, 05:14:07 PM »

A Chambers kit will give you plenty of opportunities at inlet work. While the parts are partially inlet, you will need to close the deal. Good quality parts too.
Id advise a wood rasp, a set of chisels and gouges (you don't have to break the bank). You'll need a drill along with bits for the touch hole and lock/tang bolts (8x32). Of course a hacksaw, smooth cut files, buffing wheel, propane torch, etc., etc., etc.. You will figure out on your own what else you will need.
Get your parts together then post questions on this board. There are plenty of experts out there who will be willing to help you along

saltland · « **Reply #3 on:** January 18, 2018, 05:18:08 PM »

Quote from: burnt on January 18, 2018, 05:12:17 PM

When at Lewisburg talk to at least these three guys: Jim Keibler, Jim Chambers, Dave Keck. There are lots of others to talk to but these three are actively involved in kits and components and want to sell their stuff and will have opinions on whats needed to complete their products.

Kevin

Actually these 3 gentleman are on my list.Plan to buy the Chambers kit video too.

okawbow · « **Reply #4 on:** January 18, 2018, 05:28:37 PM »

The $16 chisel and carving gouge sets online are actually usable if you learn how to keep them sharp.

I use a small block plane for much of my wood removal, to keep things level.

deepcreekdale · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2018, 06:10:38 PM »

Not trying to throw cold water on this post but in order to build guns, whether from kits or from scratch, you need tools and you need to know how to use them. Not necessarily a lot of them but you need good quality ones and they are not always cheap. I think most of us that do this, have some sort of background or at least interest in woodworking so have at least some of the essentials. For example, a high quality, 1/4 inch chisel will do most of your work. A few planes, rasps, files, drill bits with an egg beater drill and one or two gouges will suffice at first. Try going to flea markets, see if you can find someone that has antique or used tools for sale. You can save a lot of money there if you are careful. However, that can be tough if you are not familiar with tools as you might pay .25 cents for a high quality one made of the finest steel or $3.00 for one made of pot metal that can't be sharpened to cut butter. Any chance you can find someone with some tools that will help you with your first project so you can see if this is for you? As far as what you need, most of the books have a decent list of the essentials.

moleeyes36 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2018, 06:15:19 PM »

Quote from: deepcreekdale on January 18, 2018, 06:10:38 PM

Not trying to throw cold water on this post but in order to build guns, whether from kits or from scratch, you need tools and you need to know how to use them. Not necessarily a lot of them but you need good quality ones and they are not always cheap. I think most of us that do this, have some sort of background or at least interest in woodworking so have at least some of the essentials. For example, a high quality, 1/4 inch chisel will do most of your work. A few planes, rasps, files, drill bits with an egg beater drill and one or two gouges will suffice at first. Try going to flea markets, see if you can find someone that has antique or used tools for sale. You can save a lot of money there if you are careful. However, that can be tough if you are not familiar with tools as you might pay .25 cents for a high quality one made of the finest steel or $3.00 for one made of pot metal that can't be sharpened to cut butter. Any chance you can find someone with some tools that will help you with your first project so you can see if this is for you? As far as what you need, most of the books have a decent list of the essentials.

2X what Dale said.

Mole Eyes

Justin · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2018, 06:48:25 PM »

Woodcraft has all pfeil carving tools at 15% off right now.

For gouges, I use Pfeil (swiss made):
9/2
9/3
8/4
8/7
11/3
16/3 veiner
and some others I don't recall the numbers for...

Chisels:
I have a Wood River kit that I bought a while back. Works well enough but I like the pfeil's better (says "Swiss Made" on the side). I have a 4mm pfeil chisel that I used a lot.

I had basically no tools and I easily spent $900 on new tools. Probably some not needed and I prefer to buy quality stuff that lasts. Now I need to build more rifles to justify my tool purchase though... But seriously, the tools have other uses too if you are into other woodworking.

brokenflint · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2018, 07:18:54 PM »

Justin, you're only starting down that slippery tool buyin slop LOL!

Saltland, buy quality even if its a small number of tools, don't forget sharpening tools / accessories as all those pfiel chisles still need some work and will get dull. This hobby is just like anything else, you pump money into for the personal satisfaction of hand creating something. I think a good rule of thumb is you will spend as much on the tool basics as you will for the kit / parts so budget accordingly.

Mauser06 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2018, 07:55:31 PM »

Brokenflint is right....

Initial startup cost, say from scratch...a guy like me with no bench, vise, or hand tools, I am still gathering tools and stuff.

If you only plan to ever build 1 rifle, you'd probably be happier commissioning a rifle....or buying something like Kiblers kits that require much less. Or an "in the white" kit that basically needs finished.

I just totaled up a turkey gun build...I got a pretty good deal on the stock.. basically paid plank price for a good precarve..I'm still around $800 into parts alone.

It adds up quick.

But, you don't NEED every tool listed on some of the extensive lists some of the builders here have put together for us new guys.

Depends what you start with and what you plan to do...

Lots of guys would probably laugh at what I put together my first with. Most the time the rifle wasn't even in a vise because I didn't have it setup in a way I could use it. I gathered tools as I needed them. I used a lot of sandpaper instead of files and rasps. Took longer..but I made it work.

I didn't realize the work and time and tools needed when I started... basically I ordered a Pre-inlet TC replacement stock...when it came, it was about twice the size i expected and nothing really fit.... trigger was about the only thing that was really close. It sat in the corner for a month or 2 while I starred at it.. wasn't sure what to do with that hunk of wood...I didn't own hardly anything for tools...I collected stuff as I needed it. And made due with stuff that wasn't "the right tool for the job".

P.W.Berkuta · « **Reply #10 on:** January 18, 2018, 08:18:39 PM »

Quote from: saltland on January 18, 2018, 05:00:24 PM

In a few months I've decided to start my first attempt at a build.For the the last year I've watched many videos and read many books along with literally reading just about every post on the forum.My question is a basic one.All the videos I've watched the builders whether from a kit or not have a very large selection of tools ...files,rasps etc.,not including power tools.
Looking at that I could easily spend a small fortune just on that.I don't want to invest a huge amount of $ off the bat until I decide this is something I will continue.So as far as a list of tools that are a must what would you guys recommend.I realize everybody's will vary to some degree.Also I have not decided between a kit and a non inletted stock.My goal is to have a project that with slow,meticulous progress will last the better part of a year,so at this point I'm leaning towards the latter.
I also plan to go to the 18th century show at Lewisburg to talk to individuals.
Thanks,
Scott

A lot depends on your knowledge and skill with regards to metal and wood working. If you NEVER had a shop class in HS or not done ANY wood or metal projects at home you are on a LONG SLIPPERY SLOPE to ruin and disappointment $:-\$ . No amount of tools will help you. Try to attend some classes on wood and metal working so that you become familiar with tools for working with the material. This will start to give you the skill and experience to tackle a GOOD rifle KIT once you have built a few kits then you may just have some skill to do a rifle from a plank. Most of the people here who build from a plank have VAST amount of years under their belt building muzzleloaders some are VERY good, some are average, and some are still learning

ddoyle · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2018, 08:20:29 PM »

taps-drill bits-
torch-solder
Vise-
file (s) One good file is preferable to 100 bad
rasp or #30 abrasive paper
inletting tools- that you make yourself for the job of the day- regrind/file tool steel
A square and a good pencil and a patient eye
Abrasive papers and some fluid and a sheet of glass for sharpening
If you are going to work from a blank include a quality back saw and large chisel

90% of gunbuilding is planning and understanding the desired outcome. Achiveing the outcome is a simple matter of convincing a tiny speck of wood or metal to vacate your gun.

Do your self a huge favor- Keep you gun building tools to a simplicity and compactness that you can take them to the old age home or where ever else you end up. Learn to build guns with that simple kit. Then it can be a lifetime hobby. I moved 6 times in the past years- each time I jettison tools to the tip. Less I have the better and more enjoyable the work. Anything you truly need can be made. If you can use the tool to make a gun certainly you can grind/file the one angle required to make the tool!

Lots of things are needed for specialty jobs and lots of tools are nice but the above list will get you to the point where you can either make what you need, find a work around or give you the confidence to go out and pay top dollar for top quality.

Watch Colonial Gunsmith- notice much clutter around the shop?

A blank is a far better option for a beginner. By the time I inletted my first barrel I had the sharpening skills- the patience and the understanding of the mission to allow the rest of the tasks to be done in confidence (mostly/kinda LOL). Kits are a bargain if you are trying to reduce the amount of time you spend on the gun but it is hobby- 1000 dollars for 30 hours of entertainment or 500 dollars for 100 hours of entertainment- you decide.

rich pierce · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2018, 09:07:42 PM »

I built my first kit using a Black and Decker plastic workmate vise on the kitchen floor. I bought flea market chisels, files, and rasps as needed, same with drill bits.

Justin Urbantas · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2018, 09:13:10 PM »

I highly recommmend this set:
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=50695&cat=1,130,43332,43334,50695
and this one
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=31103&cat=1,130,43332,43334

ddoyle · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2018, 11:49:08 PM »

Not bad 200 bucks for 3 dollars worth of carbon steel.

I got about 3000 dollars worth of fine Lee valley, shefield and german chisels/tools (in a small box) picked up for pennies in estate sales. Most are honed to a level I cannot accomplish- Trouble is there is little to no use for 99% of them.

If you want to buy something an exacto blade with a bevel on only one side is something worth owning from the store. Good NOS files are also pretty hard to replicate with a grinder.

razorbritches · « **Reply #15 on:** January 19, 2018, 01:19:14 AM »

saltland it doesn't take a great many tools to build your first gun. It is hard to advise you without some idea of your experience. Don't get me wrong you have demonstrated the first thing needed to do anything you have decided that you can do it and are taking steps in that direction. Many men say "I could never do that" they sure can't, they just decided they can't. You are past that mark, if you have some basic skills with hammer, saw, square and rule you can do this easily. You will make mistakes, but you will make your first gun. Treasure it. My first gun I made from scratch is a .30 smoothbore I call it my learning gun cause I made so many mistakes. I still have it and it is my favorite squirrel gun "warts and all". Don't try to get too complicated with your first gun and you will do fine. but I doubt you will stop at one. The finest thing my Daddy ever taught me, was how to build my own toys, as I got bigger so did they. Building your first gun is a hard to describe experience and dare I saye it "priceless".

A.Merrill · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2018, 01:25:16 AM »

If your set on building a gun do it but don't go crazy buying up a lot of tools you won't use. I built my first rifle in 1974 it was a Dixie Gun Works kit. I didn't know anybody to talk to and I didn't realize there was a gun building book I could have bought. Only thing I had to go by was the DGW catalog. LOL I didn't even know what inletting black was. No work bench, no vise, just a few hand tools. 1/4 chisel, hammer, saw, screw driver, pocket knife, 2 crescent wrenches and a x-acto kit. At that time I lived in a mobile home and had no room for a shop. Most work was done setting in the living room in my favorite chair ( I wore the arms out on that chair LOL). That was the start of 5 rifles I built living there. There was tools that would have made the work easier but where there's a will there's a way to get the job done.
So don't worry, pick out the kit you like and go for it. ( my self I'd buy a non- inleted stock..how you going to learn to inlet a lock if its already inletted) Buy your tools when you need them and for now look for tools at pawn shops. Watch the brand name on tools and you can get good tools cheap at a pawn shop.
Always remember take your time. Remove a little wood at a time. Double check before you cut. You can always remove more material but it tuff putting it back on. Ask plenty of questions.
Good luck. Al

brokenflint · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2018, 01:28:09 AM »

Justin, I'm going to have to disagree on getting sets of chisels, btdt, new tools still in box that never get used, waste of resources (time and money). They do look good in the toolbox

V-chisel is a good example of this, I just can't sharpen them correctly, so I can't use them correctly. Some folks can use them, some folks can't.

Saltland If you're doing this withoiut class / mentor. Here's an example, buy the kit of your choice. Follow an assembly game plan, lets say inletting the barrel and tang is your first operation. Before you do anything watch a couple of videos / read mike's tutorial etc to see how it can be done, pay attention to the tools the builder uses. If those tools suit your way of work, buy those quality tools for that particular task. buy the tools necessary for the task as you go.

saltland · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2018, 01:45:24 AM »

Thanks for the responses.I have basic skills with tools.I seem to have a knack for figuring things out in that realm.So my plan is get just enough in the tool area...I do have some stuff..odd and ends like rasps/files etc.,to start and if I actually need something to proceed I'll get it.I hate to buy extra tools and end up not using them.I've watched the Gunsmith of Grenville county about 4-5 times,along with books etc.Pretty much have a game plan on how to approach certain tasks including what appears to be a nightmare...attaching the barrel tenons/pinning barrel to the stock.At times the process is intimidating but I find that if I don't look at the finish line,just concentrate on one small task and do it the best I can do that.Again back to tenons,I'll focus on that tenon I'm doing at that moment and not let the other ones and the forthcoming drill process overwhelm me.Anyways thanks for all the advice.
Scott

TommyG · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2018, 04:11:34 AM »

Saltland, All of the above advice is spot on, in the end you will find what works for you and you can add as you go. The one thing I would absolutely make sure I have and know how to use is a good sharpening system. I use a couple of DMT diamond blocks, 600 & 1200 grit, a set of slipstones, and leather stop material. It will be the one system you will use more than anything, except maybe your eraser.

pjmcdonald · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2018, 06:01:36 AM »

Salt,

As another rank amateur just starting in this hobby, the approach for me was to take a building class. I happened to find Jim Parker and highly recommend him - great teacher.

From this I got a good feel for not only the basics of architecture and assembly but also for the tools I need for my own shop. The list of essentials is remarkably small. From the class I figured out which chisels fit me and the way I work and if I could only buy 3, which ones. Same with rasps, files, and scrapers. I think I managed 80% of the work with about 10 or 12 tools, not including bench and vise.

Having Jim's full shop available, however, also taught me which additional tools that make the jobs quicker and easier. Those are on my "approved but not funded" list (milling machine lust!).

Take a class, if you can. Start with a few and add as the work requires.

That said - hi, my name is Paul. I'm a tool addict.

Paul

dogcatcher · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2018, 09:36:09 AM »

The one thing I remember from shop class in 1962. It is not the tools that make a craftsman, it is the craftsman's knowledge of how to use those tools that makes him a craftsman.

But I am a tool junkie, always needing that one more tool that I don't need.

Bill Raby · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2018, 09:47:42 AM »

Good basic rule of thumb for hand tools is that if it cuts, get the good stuff and don't go cheap. That includes chisels and files and such. No need to get fancy with things like mallets or vise. Good chisels are a pleasure to use. Go with Pfeil. Expensive, but worth every penny. The cheapo ones will make you dread workshop time.

Nordnecker · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2018, 03:26:02 PM »

Another thing you can do is- practice on scrap. Get a piece of pipe and inlet it into a 2x4. Put tenons on it and pin it/ drill it and see what you might need tool wise. Inlay something into it. You're better off to gain this confidence now while you're waiting for the kit or parts. I know, a 2x4 isn't the same as a piece of maple or walnut but it's better than no experience.

smallpatch · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2018, 06:00:35 PM »

What ever chisels you get, DONT buy sets. You'll pay for 6, and use 1 or 2. Buy quality.

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Author Topic: Beginners tools (Read 7613 times)

saltland

saltland

brokenflint

ddoyle

ddoyle

razorbritches

brokenflint

saltland