Author Topic: Lock bolt blocks ram rod  (Read 5378 times)

sleddman

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Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« on: January 20, 2018, 01:00:09 AM »
Well as you can see by my subject matter i drilled the front lock plate bolt about 1 / 32 " too low.  This was enough to block the ram rod from going in the last 2 inches or so.   I put a notch in the bolt so the ram rod now passes. This notch took out about 1/3 of the diameter of the bolt.    I am usung a 8-32 thread bolt.  Should i use a larger diameter bolt for sturdier  support and file it down?    Or is there something i am not thinking of.   Thanks ,  sleddman.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 01:05:10 AM by sleddman »

Offline vanu

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2018, 01:43:30 AM »
this is a remedy seen on many originals...

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2018, 01:47:14 AM »
I have done the same thing and did what you thought of, 10x32 and just notched the bottom, then index the bolt head so you put the thing in -in the same orientation every time. There might be other options also.

Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2018, 02:00:18 AM »
If you notch the bolt, just remember to remove the ramrod before removing or replacing the bolt.
Bob
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2018, 02:04:21 AM »
I agree this fix works but don’t like it.  Eventually you’ll try to remove the lock while the ramrod is in there.  You’ll gouge your ramrod and cuss.

More complicated fixes which can work if you have some remaining forearm thickness below the ramrod hole:

1) take the dull end of your ramrod drill, clamp in vise vertically, and peen an edge of the face of the end.  Raise a burr, so to speak.  Note where that is- draw a sharpie line down the other side of the rod opposite the burr.  Slide this in and out the ramrod hole, burr facing downward toward the belly of the forearm.  Wear the hole oblong and deeper and see if the rod will skip past.

2) open the bottom flat of your barrel inlet all the way through the web into the RR hole.  Scrape the ramrod hole deeper starting 4” above the lock bolt, all the way to the breech.  Clean it up.  Make a plug which is half round on the bottom and fits perfectly.  But make the new web deep enough to allow the lock bolt to clear the hole.  Glue it in, making sure the ramrod drill passes. Clean up and inlet the barrel as needed.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 02:05:39 AM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

sleddman

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2018, 02:20:01 AM »
Good point bob.  That would really be bad.
 Rich,  thanks for the positive fixes for the issues.  I will have to see what i am brave enough to do.   Thank you.

Offline davebozell

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2018, 02:58:07 AM »
I have done what Rich described by taking a 1/4" steel rod, putting a burr on the end, and then putting a slight bend in the rod about 6" from the end.  This rod is then used as Rich described to scrape the ramrod hole in the desired direction.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2018, 03:08:41 AM »
I like Dave’s approach better than mine.  A smaller diameter rod with a burr would allow one to bear down and direct the scraping better, I’d bet.
Andover, Vermont

brokenflint

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2018, 03:14:48 AM »
How about tapering the ramrod?  Unless of course it was already tapered!

Dave Patterson

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2018, 04:01:51 AM »
Did the same thing... once; wasn't too happy with myself that evening.

Being pretty sure I'd follow up one mistake by making another (I've seen me do it), I took a page from Peter Alexander's book, and figuring the back bolt is the one doing 99% of the work anyway, chucked the head of the offending lock bolt into a hand drill (making a shade-tree lathe), and turned the bolt down all the way 'round at the point of contact, until my ramrod passes:  now I don't have to worry about remembering to pull the ramrod before pulling the bolt. 

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2018, 04:37:01 AM »
There’s always the dummy bolt option. Sometimes you have no other choice.
Stop Marxism in America

sleddman

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2018, 05:16:26 AM »
I think a little taper on the ramrod and a slight notch will work.   I will first determine if there is enough wood in the forearm to scrape some wood out.  Super nice to have you all reply.  I think i will actually get some sleep tonight.   :)

ddoyle

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2018, 06:19:26 AM »
Why not fix the original mistake? Following a booboo with a cobble is seldom satisfying (says me the master of cobbles and coverups) Fill the holes and redrill. The gun will always have had a mistake no big deal. You will feel better seeing slight evidence of your fix then seeing your mistake. My guess is you planned for the lock bolt to be kind of centered in the nose of the pan and now it is not. That will be distracting.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 06:20:42 AM by ddoyle »

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2018, 06:21:03 AM »
Did the same thing... once; wasn't too happy with myself that evening.

Being pretty sure I'd follow up one mistake by making another (I've seen me do it), I took a page from Peter Alexander's book, and figuring the back bolt is the one doing 99% of the work anyway, chucked the head of the offending lock bolt into a hand drill (making a shade-tree lathe), and turned the bolt down all the way 'round at the point of contact, until my ramrod passes:  now I don't have to worry about remembering to pull the ramrod before pulling the bolt.

If you filed a notch all the way round the bolt to accommodate the ramrod, you won't have to index the bolt, but you will still need to pull the ramrod in order to remove the bolt. 

Norm
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Chowmi

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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2018, 06:25:48 AM »
Why not fix the original mistake? Following a booboo with a cobble is seldom satisfying (says me the master of cobbles and coverups) Fill the holes and redrill. The gun will always have had a mistake no big deal. You will feel better seeing slight evidence of your fix then seeing your mistake. My guess is you planned for the lock bolt to be kind of centered in the nose of the pan and now it is not. That will be distracting.

You will likely see the plugged hole, but no one will see the notched lock bolt until you take it apart.  I'd rather go with a notched bolt than a plug. 

Additionally, plenty of original rifles had notched lock bolts. this may not have been an error in workmanship.  Instead, good architecture may have required the nose of the lock to be a bit lower, requiring a lock bolt that infringes upon the rr channel. 
I've been taught that the priority in lock placement is:
1: touch hole
2: orientation of the lock plate for good architecture
3: front lock bolt placement

Note that lock bolt placement comes 3rd, not second.
the tail of the lock plate has a lot to do with how the gun transitions to the wrist.  If you let the front lock bolt drive lock placement, then you may compromise the position of the tail and the transition to the wrist.

Norm
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 06:27:44 AM by Chowmi »
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Chowmi

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ddoyle

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2018, 07:07:11 AM »
You will see the misplaced lock bolt for absolute certain- you might not see the repair. The misplaced bolt will always speak to a mistake. Visible plugs will speak to a mistake corrected.  Probabley wont see the plugs thru the sideplate and you probabley wont see the plugged hole in the lock plate.  Even if you do, wait for it, " Many originals re-used locks"

If the builder fixes this error he will learn and be more confident in the future, might as well squeeze as much learning and satisfaction out of the build as possible.

Or just leave the mistake and tell yourself that originals sometimes left the shop with notched bolts either because of mistakes or because someone planned it that way.

 Easy mistake to make and no shame in it or in making a custom bolt or custom ram rod. Just throwing out options.



« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 07:12:36 AM by ddoyle »

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2018, 07:23:32 AM »
You will see the misplaced lock bolt for absolute certain- you might not see the repair. The misplaced bolt will always speak to a mistake. Visible plugs will speak to a mistake corrected.  Probabley wont see the plugs thru the sideplate and you probabley wont see the plugged hole in the lock plate.  Even if you do, wait for it, " Many originals re-used locks"

If the builder fixes this error he will learn and be more confident in the future, might as well squeeze as much learning and satisfaction out of the build as possible.

Or just leave the mistake and tell yourself that originals sometimes left the shop with notched bolts either because of mistakes or because someone planned it that way.

 Easy mistake to make and no shame in it or in making a custom bolt or custom ram rod. Just throwing out options.

Aha!
I think maybe we are talking about two different things! 
My assumption was that the lock bolt was centered in the front of the lock plate, but went through the web.  I might guess that you thought the lock bolt was not centered on the lock plate.  If you are right, then certainly it will show. 

I guess we need to find out from the OP what is the case.

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2018, 07:26:13 AM »
Pulling the ramrod is no big deal but you would only have to pull it out a couple of inches to unscrew the bolt.  Indexing the bolt can be done very discreetly so as to be almost not visible. I like Dave and Riches fix option too. Which ever one you choose, might depend on how far into the ramrod hole the bolt lays.

sleddman

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2018, 07:49:58 AM »
Norm,  i center drilled for the front lock plate entering into the ramrod channel.   I filed a grove into the shaft of the bolt giving me room for the passage of the ramrod.    Was a quick pannic attempt to fix it.  With a little taper to the ramrod i think will temp fix as i look into a better solution,  thanks again all.

sleddman

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2018, 07:53:55 AM »
Smylee,   the bolt blocks the channel about 1 / 32 inch,   fileing the bolt about 1 /3 notch opens it up for passage of a full width ramrod.

Offline Chowmi

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2018, 08:30:52 AM »
Norm,  i center drilled for the front lock plate entering into the ramrod channel.   I filed a grove into the shaft of the bolt giving me room for the passage of the ramrod.    Was a quick pannic attempt to fix it.  With a little taper to the ramrod i think will temp fix as i look into a better solution,  thanks again all.

thanks,
That's what I thought you meant.  Good fix, and historically accurate!

Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2018, 08:38:24 AM »
Hi Sleddman:  1/32 isn't much, I think you will be OK with the notch in the bolt fix and the other options are still doable if you should change you mind latter.  :)

Offline rsells

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2018, 09:12:32 AM »
I have done the same thing you done to the front lock screw without any issues.  I do put an index mark on the head of the screw showing the customer how the screw should be positioned when tightened to work with the ram rod.  I made a change in the size of the front lock screw a while back when I seen that Track of the Wolf supplies these screws in 6 x 32 size.  I use the smaller in the front and the 8 x 32 for the back screw.  That smaller diameter gives me a bigger margin in case the ramrod hole drifts closer toward the barrel.  It causes me to have to stock two sizes and a third 10 x 32 in case I screw up on a lock plate, but it seems to work fine with the two sizes . 
                                                                                            Roger Sells
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 09:16:08 AM by rsells »

Offline L. Akers

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2018, 06:02:52 PM »
I don't think you need to mess with the bolt.  Just taper the ramrod.  I typically taper my rods down to 1/4".  This will allow it to pass under the bolt.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Lock bolt blocks ram rod
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2018, 06:19:12 PM »
Taper your rod end first. If that works, great. If not, instead ofnnotching the lock nail, put a waist on it instead.  Since you only took 1/3 for the notch, the waist should be sufficient and no need to index. Anyone ever seen an original rifle that took a huge rod end all the way to the breech? Studying fowling guns they always taper down to like 1/4 but I haven't paid much attention to rifles.