Flintlock mechanism issue - lack of frizzen full open

[jrubin]

Decided to test the amount of spark produced on the TVM rifle today, and noticed that the frizzen doesn't not come to full open upon firing. As i had teken the pictures it seem tightening the flint may have fixed it or it may have been several attempts that loosened something allowed it to operate.  Not sure, So I staged an example of the condition below. Is lead better than leather in this regard as a flint holder?

Half cocked


Flints from TOTW same size as the one installed


Condition seen

[little joe]

Try oil on the frizzen to spring contact point and some oil at the frizzen screw area

[Stoner creek]

Sharp flint-bevel down perhaps? Try polishing the foot of the frizzen and the contact point on the frizzen spring.

[smylee grouch]

A couple of other considerations, how heavy is the frizzen spring, does the frizzen scrape on the side of the barrel, does the frizzen flip all the way open when the lock is out of the gun?

[Mike Brooks]

It could be "rebounding" , opening all the way then coming back.

[Standing Bear]

Appears to me that the flint is too short.  Or the cock isn’t traveling far enough toward the pan.

Flint reinstalled with bevel down May be enough. On some this can be remedied by placing a twig behind the flint.  I don’t think that’s work with that particular flint, the hump may be too far forward for the top jaw to hold it.  Saw you have a package of flints, sorting may find one that will work.
TC

[hanshi]

I agree with Standing Bear.  At half cock the flint should be no more than 1/16" or a little more from the frizzen.  You either need to  put something behind the flint to move it forward, get a longer size flint and/or turn the flint bevel down.  And the frizzen just might be rebounding.

[Molly]

Flint looks too short.  No lead IMO.

[varsity07840]

It could be "rebounding" , opening all the way then coming back.

Yes. Put your hand ahead of the frizzen at a point where the top would be if fully open. If it hits your hand , it's a rebound issue.
I have several rifles that will sometimes rebound if dry fired but never do it when actually fired. Must be the recoil. I don't mess with them.

[jrubin]

I can confirm this is not a rebound issue,
How tight should the flint be in the leather? seems this is something that would require constant attention

[iloco]

I agree with Standing Bear.  At half cock the flint should be no more than 1/16" or a little more from the frizzen.  You either need to  put something behind the flint to move it forward, get a longer size flint and/or turn the flint bevel down.  And the frizzen just might be rebounding.

My Kibler 32 caliber flint I am sure is to short. If I allow a small gap between frizzen and flint I have a big gap behind flint.
What size flint does the Ketland flintlock require.

[Black Hand]

I can confirm this is not a rebound issue,
How tight should the flint be in the leather? seems this is something that would require constant attention

Fairly tight - once tightened, I rarely need to mess with the screw. Use a piece of leather.

[jrubin]

According to TVM, using the Chamber Siler lock, the flint size is correct at 3/4 x 7/8.    Begs the question, how much use can you get out of then when successive knapping makes them shorter and shorter?

[Pukka Bundook]

A good lock will knap its own flints very often.
By this I mean you can often go 40 shots or more with no knapping.
I'd turn your flint over, as that kind of makes it longer anyway.  Tighten it well and if it works, forget about it.   Tight, not just snug.

Good luck!,
R.

[Brokennock]

According to TVM, using the Chamber Siler lock, the flint size is correct at 3/4 x 7/8.    Begs the question, how much use can you get out of then when successive knapping makes them shorter and shorter?

My larger Siler, mounted in a TVM Early Virginia smooth rifle, has the flints last long enough, even before needing to be knapped, that I loose track of how many shots have been fired, and I totally loose track of how many shots I get per flint before changing flints. I do at somw point need to move the flint forward in the jaws as the lock does perform best when the flint edge is so close to the frizzen at half cock that use of a leather frizzen stall leaves the pan open a hair.  I only use leather as a pad, but slightly thicker than what the o.p. shows, but it is also slightly spongy so it all compresses together.

[Molly]

The flint does not have to be against the screw.  The more important aspect is where it strikes the frizzen and I can say it should be well up from where the photo shows.  Also cut a few "teeth" in the jaw(s) to hold the leather and flint better. 

[Bigmon]

Rebounding??
I sat in on a lock tuning session by Keith Casteele this year at Dixon's.
I remember him saying that when that happens it is most often actually the frizzen rebounding, not failing to open.
Sorry but I don't recall the remedy?

[Bob Roller]

Rebounding??
I sat in on a lock tuning session by Keith Casteele this year at Dixon's.
I remember him saying that when that happens it is most often actually the frizzen rebounding, not failing to open.
Sorry but I don't recall the remedy?

One remedy is to extend the leather to the upper edge of the flint and if
there is a rebound that can break the flint it will be stopped.

Bob Roller

[Larry Pletcher]

Judging from the picture, I think the problem is that the scrape didn't finish instead of a rebound.  A rebounding frizzen comes to rest on top of the flint. The picture shows the flint a distance above the bottom edge of the frizzen. The frizzen hasn't cammed over yet.  This information my just my gut.  Advice like this and 50 cents won't quite buy you a coke anymore.
Regards,
Pletch

[OldMtnMan]

Wouldn't rebounding happen if the frizzen spring was too weak? How about too stiff?

[Daryl]

Spring problem - feather or main - feather too strong & improperly timed --- or main much too weak

Frizzen too soft with flint digging in and stopping. If this is the case, it is unlikely to be producing any sparks - at least, no white hot ones

We have not seen a picture of the cock at full throw, just with the flint resting on or dug into the frizzen's face (which is unlikely to be full throw).

Cock at full throw should have the flint, even a short one, closer to the pan so that it has scraped the frizzen full length. It is

obvious the flint is in the shady area of too short, but the cock's top jaw has not hit the frizzen, thus the lock should have worked.

If the flint is too short to work at all, the top jaw - or screw would have struck the frizzen's face.

If this last picture is the cock at full through, the lock needs a new, properly made tumbler.

In that lock, my opinion is the flint is too short to be shot bevel up causing it to strike the frizzen too far down it's face.  In this lock, the flint should have been mounted bevel down, so it scrapes more of the frizzen's face.

Lets see a picture of the cock at full throw.

A rebounding frizzen should be striking the flint just back from the top front edge.  The fix for that is different timing on the
frizzen's throw and rebound, along with possibly a stiffer feather spring.

[hanshi]

Yes, use leather to hold the flint and keep it snug.  As flints in my rifle wear and shorten, I move them forward in the cock and put something behind them to keep them from being pushed back.  I remember one flint that finally got so short the jaws couldn't grip it.  that's one flint I know had over 100 shots; I quit counting after 100.

[jrubin]

Spring problem - feather or main - feather too strong & improperly timed --- or main much too weak

Frizzen too soft with flint digging in and stopping. If this is the case, it is unlikely to be producing any sparks - at least, no white hot ones

We have not seen a picture of the cock at full throw, just with the flint resting on or dug into the frizzen's face (which is unlikely to be full throw).

Cock at full throw should have the flint, even a short one, closer to the pan so that it has scraped the frizzen full length. It is

obvious the flint is in the shady area of too short, but the cock's top jaw has not hit the frizzen, thus the lock should have worked.

If the flint is too short to work at all, the top jaw - or screw would have struck the frizzen's face.

If this last picture is the cock at full through, the lock needs a new, properly made tumbler.

In that lock, my opinion is the flint is too short to be shot bevel up causing it to strike the frizzen too far down it's face.  In this lock, the flint should have been mounted bevel down, so it scrapes more of the frizzen's face.

Lets see a picture of the cock at full throw.

A rebounding frizzen should be striking the flint just back from the top front edge.  The fix for that is different timing on the
frizzen's throw and rebound, along with possibly a stiffer feather spring.

I think I found the problem.......


The loose flint was deflecting instead of knocking open the frizzen. Tightening solved the problem. Im providing the picture anyway as requested an hope to have a movie to you shortly.

[mark esterly]

your frizzen is also or has been scraping the barrel.

[jrubin]

so it would appear, ill give a closer inspection in light of that