Author Topic: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start  (Read 9772 times)

Offline Justin

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Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« on: January 23, 2018, 12:06:41 AM »
A gun builder friend of mine was showing me some of his rifles a few weeks ago and some of them had the end of the barrel opening filed back a bit to make it a little easier to start a ball and patch there. Theoretically, this reduced or eliminated the need for a ball starter.

Does anyone have advice on how to do this?

I don't see it mentioned in my books (or perhaps I've missed it) but it seems like a smart idea, if done right.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2018, 12:34:01 AM »
More than likely the barrel was coned.
Dennis
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 09:35:34 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline Long Ears

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2018, 12:45:28 AM »
Big can of worms here! search Barrel Coning or crowning. There are a few ways to do it, all of them loaded with a lot of strong personal opinions. It sure helps loading however. Bob

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2018, 03:47:05 AM »
This MUST be done correctly.  Decorative muzzle filing must be done on an area BEFORE the rifling starts at the muzzle.  In other words coned. Coning will make the rifling a bit shorter, leaving room for some decoration.  Coning must be done with the proper tooling and techniques. Some call it a heinie muzzle.
You will get MANY varied opinions on doing this.  Personally, I've done it many times, and had no ill effects.
Sure makes loading easier.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline SingleMalt

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2018, 04:11:59 AM »
This MUST be done correctly.  Decorative muzzle filing must be done on an area BEFORE the rifling starts at the muzzle.  In other words coned. Coning will make the rifling a bit shorter, leaving room for some decoration.  Coning must be done with the proper tooling and techniques. Some call it a heinie muzzle.
You will get MANY varied opinions on doing this.  Personally, I've done it many times, and had no ill effects.
Sure makes loading easier.

I cone all of my rifles.  Joe Wood's coning tool is easy to use and works well.  And as smallpatch said, it does make loading easier.
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2018, 05:52:04 AM »
IMHO,..... Joes tool is the way to go.  Follow instructions carefully, it works.
Then if you want to get fancy with muzzle decorations, you won't harm the rifling.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Justin

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2018, 06:35:29 AM »
Ah, yes... Barrel coning. My friend told me about Joe's coning Tool also:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=41303.0

Offline Curtis

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2018, 08:03:07 AM »
If you like getting an adrenaline rush you can do it with a file like some of the originals were....





Curtis
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Herb

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2018, 08:24:46 AM »
In this book, Gordon has photos of 41 Hawken firearms.  Of these, 16 have muzzles filed like the Bridger and Carson rifles.  Eleven show no rifling at all, being "coned" to eliminate the lands at the muzzle.  On 6 I couldn't tell. Four muzzles were not pictured.  Of four pistols, one had a filed muzzle, one was "coned" and two were not shown.  All muzzle faces were flat with no crown.





Jim Bridger Hawken muzzle which I photographed at the museum in Helena, MT.

Here I am filing the muzzle of an Oregon Rifle Company barrel of a Bridger Hawken I built.  I made a coning tool to cut the rifling away, tapered back about 3/8 inch.  Then I filed the grooves back at the muzzle with a triangular needle file.

The completed muzzle.  This allows the patched ball to be set into the muzzle, making loading easier. Accuracy was excellent.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 01:22:52 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2018, 04:12:52 PM »
Our own "Longknife" produces one. See this URL for pricing.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4330.0

The URL below shows a tutorial on how its done.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4375.msg40866#msg40866
Dennis
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Offline Bigmon

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2018, 04:27:07 PM »
I have a rifle that I did this to myself with a big old reamer.  Probably a big mistake as I have always thought it just does not shoot consistently as it should.
Actually I been wondering if there would be anyone I could send it to that could "re-do" it and true it up?
I know there is no way I could have gotten it even and perfect by hand the way I did it?

Hemo

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2018, 04:44:05 PM »
Our own "Longknife" produces one. See this URL for pricing.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4330.0

The URL below shows a tutorial on how its done.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4375.msg40866#msg40866
Dennis

I've used this tool on several barrels, but so far only on smoothbores, to give the appearance of a thinner barrel wall at the muzzle. Works fine for this.

Gregg

Offline louieparker

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2018, 06:18:28 PM »
Back in September I had an appointment to see the Phillip Creamer rifle made for William Clark. Bob Browner and I made the trip to the museum. One of the things I measured was the bore. I put an expanding ball three inches down the bore. The bore seemed a bit rough at that point but it measured .390.  Then I measured just inside the muzzle it measured .410. So it seems Creamer realeaved or coned this barrel.

The Museum has the rifle listed as 45 cal....Louie

Offline Justin

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2018, 07:40:40 PM »
In case anyone is interested and couldn't find the other post I linked, Joe still makes and sells these.

$50 including shipping:

Joe Wood
THE FIRELOCK SHOP
5311 Briar St.
Amarillo, Texas. 79109




I emailed him last night and he said to email him my address and he'd send it out while I send a check to the address above.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 08:26:56 AM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline davec2

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2018, 10:44:46 PM »
Several years ago I read an article by Peter Alexander in one of the muzzleloading magazines. It it, he described a vey simple coning reamer with a single cutting lip.  I had one made with a 1/4 pilot on the tip so that I could use brass bushings to keep the tool centered with any bore diameter.  I also had made a more modern, spiral flute reamer with the same pilot / bushing arrangement on the tip.  As one might expect, the spiral reamer worked much better than the older single lip design, but both worked well.  The spiral reamer will cone a barrel with less than 3 minutes work and leaves a perfectly centered, excellent surface finish.



Of course, not long after I went to the trouble of getting this all done, I came across Daryl and Taylor's posts about putting just a slight radius on the muzzle edge with a thumb and abrasive paper.  Never one to shy away from over complicating a simple problem, I made a set of these tools to cut just a nice, perfectly centered, radius on the muzzle edge.



This is how a barrel came from the manufacturer......



The tool in use (takes about two or three turns and a minutes worth of time).....



Here is what the cutter looks like in profile.......



The finished radius.  Actually, this photo does not convey that the radius smoothly blends into the bore diameter.  Also, after I posted this a few years ago, some of the responses were that the radius looks fairly excessive.  I agreed, so I have re-made the cutters with a much smaller radius.  I don't have a picture handy, but the radius now looks like the ones Daryl and Taylor do so precisely and successfully with their thumb....



As I mentioned...there is no sense doing something the simple way when you can complicate the heck out of it !!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 11:56:39 AM by davec2 »
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Offline Herb

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2018, 07:58:01 AM »
Here are three more Hawken muzzles showing no crown.  First is a J&S Hawken in the Montana Historical Society museum, where Jim Bridger's rifle is.

A Sam Hawken rifle in the Nebraska State Historical Society in Lincoln.

A Sam Hawken rifle in the Nelson Museum of the West in Cheyenne, WY.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 01:25:32 AM by Herb »
Herb

Turtle

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2018, 04:34:14 PM »
Joe woods tools are slow and a pain changing sandpaper and tape a lot, but they do a great job. I get around the expense of buying one for every caliber by having my first coning customer in a caliber buy the tool and then I cone them for free and keep the tool. Pulling the tool and sandpaper out of the barrel often and brushing off with a toothbrush  the metal makes the paper last longer between changes.

Offline Bigmon

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2018, 05:21:58 PM »
IS there anyone available to do this for someone?
Actually, as I stated earlier I did a barrel myself and suspect I am not getting the best results possible in accuracy, as I did it by eys with no guide or bushing down the bore or anywhere.
Just used a big old iron workers reamer, and then did some hand polishing.
If it is perfect centered, etc, then it is a miracle.
I always wanted to get it re-done by someone that knows how and has the correct equipment.

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2018, 09:37:55 PM »
Bigmon.
First of all, what caliber?  The tools are barrel specific.  I have a .40,.50 and a .54.
Unfortunately, if it's too far off, you may have to cut off the muzzle .
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Longknife

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2018, 09:54:22 PM »
Bigmon, My tool is universal fit and will do barrels from .32 to .75 caliber,, however my tool produces a shorter cone than other tools on the market, usually less than 1/2 inch. This is much more like the originals I have inspected. If your reamer went deeper into the bore than my tool does it may not work. I would have to inspect the barrel to determine if it would work....or you could buy a tool and try it your self, they are very easy to operate!....
 
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 10:48:35 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Lindisfarne793

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2018, 12:45:10 PM »
Is the firelock shop still in business? I went looking for them, but found no web page, and the email address seems to be dead.

Turtle

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2018, 01:05:16 PM »
  On a woods walk this past weekend, I was first loaded to shoot because of my coned barrel. I use a thin loading block so the ball sticks out the bottom to locate, push the patched ball through the block with my ramrod, and ram home---sweet--no swinging targets!
. I use Joes tools.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2018, 07:19:19 PM »
Different ways to skin that cat. Seems most original guns lands and grooves were filed. Emery cloth or wet/dry paper works well too.

Dickert rifling filing



Thumb treatment with emery or wet/dry paper.





Thumb treatment but done on the lathe - about 15 seconds worth.



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German SxS percussion rifle with filed muzzles. I do not have other pictures of this gun, dang. Most interesting Damascus.


Daryl

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Offline stubshaft

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2018, 08:05:34 PM »
Our own "Longknife" produces one. See this URL for pricing.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4330.0

The URL below shows a tutorial on how its done.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4375.msg40866#msg40866
Dennis

I've used this tool on barrels from .32 to .54 and have observed no loss of accuracy but much easier loading.
I'd rather die standing, than live on my knees...

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Opening up end of barrel channel to allow easier ball start
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2018, 08:55:12 PM »
Well since we has this bucket of worms dumped out onto the work surface, I'll comment only that "crown" and "cone" are two different things. As I understand it: Crown is the very end of the bbl (existing primarily in the perpendicular plane to the bore) and Cone (if any) is a transitional section of bbl between bore and crown (mostly parallel to bore).

BBL's can have one, both, or neither.    ;)  And then there's thumbing and filing (which to me are more "crown mods" than "coning").  whoot!   :P



wigglers everywhere!  ;D
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 08:56:38 PM by WadePatton »
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