58cal gain twist

[Mauser06]

The other 58cal brought a thought to me...


I have a 44" Hoyt barrel in a plank right now. It's a 58cal with gain twist rifling. 


Anyone have thoughts on what loads it may like?  More powder? Less powder?  Thicker patch/smaller ball or bigger ball/thinner patch? 

I've never dealt with gain twist. Not sure what to expect. Mr. Hoyt said that most everyone he sells to loves them and that's now his standard but I forgot to ask him about charges.

What would you consider "a high" charge?  The other post mentions 140grs...I've never stuffed that much down a bore...I'm not recoil sensitive or concerned about recoil. Going to be after accuracy and hunting.

[Pukka Bundook]

I think some of the questions you have, Mauser, will depend on what the twist winds up at, at the muzzle.

It does sound a very interesting barrel!

[hanshi]

My experience with "gain twist" is limited but I have had a .45 rifle with a gain twist bore for over 50 years.  All I can say is that it is accurate in the extreme.  As for charges, I load it the same as any of my other .45 rifles.  I'd say simply treat it as you would any other .58 and see what works.

[Mauser06]

All I know is that it starts off slow and gradually twists faster towards the muzzle.



I'm anxious to shoot it....goal is to have it done before fall...but we'll see. 1 in the vise now and I just bought a house that will keep me busy.

[OldMtnMan]

I’ll quote what Pope (Pope was one of the greatest barrel makers from a bygone era. His barrels along with Schalk who he learned from and gives credit to and Schoyen, and Zischang made barrels for the Schutzenfest type of guns/shooting in the late 1800’s to early 1900’s) said around a 100 years ago first. “The advantages of the gain twists are three. 1st The twist being less at the breech, gives less friction to the bullet; it therefore starts easier and quicker, giving the powder less time to burn on in front of the chamber, which therefore fouls less than in a barrel of uniform twist at the same necessary muzzle pitch (twist). 2nd The slight change in angle of the rifling, in connection with choke bore (lapping choke bore of the barrel), effectually shuts off any gas escape of gas and prevents gas cutting, which is another case of imperfect delivery. 3rd It holds a muzzle loaded bullet in position much better than a uniform twist….

[Treebeard]

Mauser i would suggest giving Mr. Hoyt a call on that gain twist rifling. He has allways shared his advice on rifling with me and has helped me make decisions based on that . I have never had a reason to regret taking his advice.

[Mauser06]

Ya I will probably give him a call when I get closer.  I should have asked the first time. It was kinda funny how it came about.  Found an old post of his about a pistols barrel and emailed him about it. A long while later he replied saying give him a call. I did. Asked what else he had laying around. Happened to have the exact rifle barrel I would have wanted so I bought it too. He told me about the gain twist..I've never heard of it before then. But didn't seem like a guy that would steer me wrong.

[smylee grouch]

A long time ago a friend had a Numrich Arms 45 cal. with gain twist. Once he figured out the right load combo it was a tack driver but it   was very particular about powder charge variation.

[L. Akers]

I’ll quote what Pope (Pope was one of the greatest barrel makers from a bygone era. His barrels along with Schalk who he learned from and gives credit to and Schoyen, and Zischang made barrels for the Schutzenfest type of guns/shooting in the late 1800’s to early 1900’s) said around a 100 years ago first. “The advantages of the gain twists are three. 1st The twist being less at the breech, gives less friction to the bullet; it therefore starts easier and quicker, giving the powder less time to burn on in front of the chamber, which therefore fouls less than in a barrel of uniform twist at the same necessary muzzle pitch (twist). 2nd The slight change in angle of the rifling, in connection with choke bore (lapping choke bore of the barrel), effectually shuts off any gas escape of gas and prevents gas cutting, which is another case of imperfect delivery. 3rd It holds a muzzle loaded bullet in position much better than a uniform twist….

Pope and his contemporaries were shooting bullets-- not round balls, so this may or may not be valid.  Whether a gain twist is any advantage with a round ball is arguable either way.  One advantage of a gain twist, and one that is more noticable with larger bores, is less torque at the instant before the ball starts to move.  The rifle with gain twist may be able to be shot more accurately because it doesn't move as much.  This is my reason for cutting my target pistol barrels with a gain twist.

[Longknife]

In 1981 (?) I had Hoyt bore and rifle an original barrel to .40 cal. gain twist. 1-60 to 1-40. He said thats all his machine would do. He also told me that he hadn't done gain twist in that small of a bore yet. Well I got to tell ya that think is a tack driver. I used to take it all the local shoots and I always had everyone gather around as they were amazed that someone was shooting an "original",,, and WINNING!!!! Thinned out the squirrel population in Madison and Macoupin County with it too!! Still have it, its marked J Hayden Oxford Ohio,,,,Ed

[Old Ford2]

Hi,
Ned Roberts speaks of gain twist in his book.
He mentions that a gain twist barrel is good in larger calibres, as to being able to load a heavier charge with out stripping the ball as it progresses down the barrel.
Anxious to see how your gun turns out.
Fred

[Daryl]

DPhar shoots a .50 gain twsit barrel in the 60 yard plank shoots they have up in Montana and Wyoming.  A McLellen barrel, I think it is.  I think at this time (for several years), Dan is unbeatable.  He uses something like 100gr. 3F PLUS a very tightly patched round ball.

[hanshi]

Don't know if this applies since the barrel makers I'm familiar with do precise work.  It is a poor bore if the rifling twist gets slower - say, a start at 1-48" slowing to 1-50+" -  AT ALL toward the muzzle; accuracy will be poor and ball stripping is probable.  Even a slight acceleration of the twist is beneficial compared to that.

[Mauser06]

I appreciate all the info!   I'm now even more excited/anxious to get the rifle built! 


Sounds promising. 


Will be a while. It's going to be my first plank built and I have a gun in the vise right now. Hoping to have it done before next Christmas. But we'll see...

[Daryl]

Don't know if this applies since the barrel makers I'm familiar with do precise work.  It is a poor bore if the rifling twist gets slower - say, a start at 1-48" slowing to 1-50+" -  AT ALL toward the muzzle; accuracy will be poor and ball stripping is probable.  Even a slight acceleration of the twist is beneficial compared to that.

Hanshi - I would expect this would be more prevalent or important in a modern ctg bl., than in an ML.  True - a slight increase is certainly beneficial.
PM to you.

[Larry Pletcher]

Somewhere I read or heard that Pope was given static about winning with a gain twist barrel.  It made him mad, so he breeched a gain twist barrel backwards and won with that.  I can't vouch for the truth in this old story - I can't remember where it came from.  Thought it was cool though.

Regards,
Pletch

[Mauser06]

To clarify...its my understanding that my rifling is slower at the breech and faster at the muzzle. 


Mr. Hoyt has made a couple barrels in his time and I've never heard anyone complain about his work.

The way he spoke made it sound like that is his standard rifling which makes me think that many guys have gain twist rifling and don't know it.  I'd assume when he rebores for guys, it's probably gain twist as well..but thats just assuming.

[little joe]

 Had a Bill Large .50  and it was about 1 in 90 at the breech and gradually increased to 10 inches from the muzzle to 1 in 30. Very good  shooter.

[Bob Roller]

Had a Bill Large .50  and it was about 1 in 90 at the breech and gradually increased to 10 inches from the muzzle to 1 in 30. Very good  shooter.

Bill Large and I made the gain twist tooling in1960 and it shot really well.
It was quite a task and I wouldn't tackle it today.
N.G.Whitmore,maker of the U.S.Grant presentation rifle now in the Smithsonian
in DC used a gain twist that is unknown to me but his rifles were banned according
to Ned Roberts as being unfair competition.The Grant rifle when tested used a
picket bullet with circular linen patch and was 38  caliber with 12 grooves.
At 110 yards or 20 rods as it was called it hit a target the size of a percussion cap
box 10 consecutive shots.I tried to get Bill Large to copy this but he never did.
Harry Pope's gain twist on some barrels was 1in 16 and ended in 1 in 15.75.
I have shot one in 38 caliber in the mid 60's and off a rest using Pope's mould
for the bullet and breech seating it I was able to get under one inch easily with
scope sight.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

DPhar shoots a .50 gain twsit barrel in the 60 yard plank shoots they have up in Montana and Wyoming.  A McLellen barrel, I think it is.  I think at this time (for several years), Dan is unbeatable.  He uses something like 100gr. 3F PLUS a very tightly patched round ball.

DPhar's barrel is from Jim McLemore in Hebron,Indiana. I haven't heard
from him for a long while now and may call him this evening.

Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Spot-on, Bob - I could not remember his name.  Don't know why I came up with McLellen, perhaps there is another barrel maker with that name - or I just imagined it.