I found this interesting rifle with a Sutter lock at a local gun shop

[RonC]

The proprietor had taken in a few commercial muzzleloaders (T/C and Traditions) and a custom, Frankenstein muzzle loading rifle from the estate of a recently deceased individual.
I decided to check on the flint lock's maker's name. He was W.G. Sutter, a gunsmith out of Ruff Dale, PA who was building long rifles from 1940's through the 1970s. A search on his name told me that he mostly made locks, but did make several rifles. He supplied locks to Dixie Gun Works.
The rifle is HEAVY. Probably made for supported shooting. Most of the weight is forward of the lock. As a 45 cal, most of the metal is left in the barrel, and there is a lot of barrel, 42".
Also, the stock has a lot of excess wood and is quite bulky, but the workmanship is good.
The patch box does not seem to be of the same era as the rest of the rifle.

Criticisms aside, the price was too good to pass up. Here it is. All comments and critiques are welcome.






Ron

[Old Salt]

I can't tell you any thing about rifle, but like that lock.


Old Salt

[RonC]

It is an interesting lock that functions - mostly.
The hammer and flint will not drive the frizzen all the way back. Frizzen moves back to the point where the flint is just touching the very bottom of the frizzen. There, it stops.
The trigger is very stiff.
These issues give me a project to work on.
Ron

[Hungry Horse]

Nice Bedford style lock. Too bad it been wasted on a blacksmiths gun. It looks like the muzzleloaders assembled by blacksmiths a hundred years ago from random parts that come from a bunch of different broken guns. For some unknown reason these are almost always made with a crowbar of a barrel, and small delicate locks and parts.

  Hungry Horse

[DICKH]

     Was the lock made by Sutter or did it start life as a Dixie Gun Works kit?

     Richard Henderson

[oldtravler61]

  Ron this made my day...makes my first build look spectacular...if nothing else you got a great set of parties for a rebuild...I have a Russ Hamm lock that looks somewhat simular...somewhat...Thanks for showing

[Bob Roller]

     Was the lock made by Sutter or did it start life as a Dixie Gun Works kit?

     Richard Henderson

Pull this lock off and let's seen the real part of the lock that
dwells inside the plate.There were a number of these made
from castings that were of doubtful quality.Most if not all of
Mr.Sutter's locks had tumblers made from torsion  bars that
were salvaged from wrecked Chryslers or 1955 and 1956
Packards. Springs were heavy and usually from 1095.

Bob Roller

[RonC]

Here are some closeups of the internals.

[RonC]

I think I have the frizzen problem resolved.

First, I used a slight amount of lubricating oil on the various screws on the lock.  A strike by the flint then sent the frizzen a little further back.

I polished the surfaces where the springs contact the lock plate. The hammer and flint moved father down the frizzen. Then I loosened slightly the sear screw and bridle screws so all moved freely. Voila, Viola, Walla (or however that French term is spelled)! The hammer completed its movement and the frizzen went all the way back.

There were sparks aplenty

Ron

[Bob Roller]

I think I have the frizzen problem resolved.

First, I used a slight amount of lubricating oil on the various screws on the lock.  A strike by the flint then sent the frizzen a little further back.

I polished the surfaces where the springs contact the lock plate. The hammer and flint moved father down the frizzen. Then I loosened slightly the sear screw and bridle screws so all moved freely. Voila, Viola, Walla (or however that French term is spelled)! The hammer completed its movement and the frizzen went all the way back.

There were sparks aplenty

Ron

It looks to me like the mainspring moves OFF the tumbler at the end
of the firing cycle.The only lock I have ever seen worse than this one was
on a pistol years ago in a local gun shop.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

I think I have the frizzen problem resolved.

First, I used a slight amount of lubricating oil on the various screws on the lock.  A strike by the flint then sent the frizzen a little further back.

I polished the surfaces where the springs contact the lock plate. The hammer and flint moved father down the frizzen. Then I loosened slightly the sear screw and bridle screws so all moved freely. Voila, Viola, Walla (or however that French term is spelled)! The hammer completed its movement and the frizzen went all the way back.

There were sparks aplenty

Ron

It looks to me like the mainspring moves OFF the tumbler at the end
of the firing cycle.The only lock I have ever seen worse than this one was
on a pistol years ago in a local gun shop.

Bob Roller

One thing I missed was the apparent evidence of a screw hole being
plugged as is seen in lock plates used as masters for mould making.
I don't think Mr.Sutter would have used the cross screw in the manner
shown to secure the lock to the rifle.

Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

 I hope you didn’t pay much for this train wreck. So far I’ve not seen much worth saving.

  Hungry Horse

note by Moderator. Rudeness for rudeness’ sake will earn you a vacation from ALR.  Time to change your ways or go bye bye.  Your call.

[RonC]

The low price was the only thing that made me consider it. My thought was that if it didn't turn out to be adequate as a whole, I might be able to turn it into a project rifle to work and learn on. I've already learned more about locks by working on the lock to make it function. Of course I have learned from the posts on this thread. The condition of the barrel and its bore is promising, whether to use it as is or to have it bored out.
The stock is a nice piece of walnut even if the shape is clunky.
This is the carved side of the stock:

Ron

[Dave Marsh]

Thanks Rich......

Dave

[Hungry Horse]

 I am sorry for being so critical of this piece. Sometimes I get wound up when I see a weapon made from a variety of parts, or a variety of styles, and respond before common sense takes over. Please forgive me.

  Hungry Horse
 AKA Marty Klier

[Hungry Horse]

The mainspring in this lock appears to be from a Dixie F1, or P1 lock, and is a bit too short, as Bob mentioned. These springs were very strong, and can fracture the stock if they unload in the lock mortise. The lock bolt is causing the spring to flex primarily out on its end instead of throughout the lower arm, which can lead to breakage.
 Before you attempt to shoot this gun, I would inspect the breech. It appears to be a patent breach, with the touch hole bored way far forward. This could mean that the touch hole is bored out beyond the breech threads, rather than through the plug and into the powder chamber. This is why the lock is so far forward in the stock, I suspect.
 With all these issues, I would completely disassemble this gun, and inspect it, before firing it.

 Hungry Horse