Author Topic: John Bivins Becentennial 50 cal....  (Read 18376 times)

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2018, 09:43:24 PM »
In all honesty, how or who does determine value on these rifles?
I'll give you a thousand bucks for it if you don't like my first estimate.
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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2018, 09:56:42 PM »
I am located outside Tyrone Pa..... my email is robpack@Hotmail.com

Offline iloco

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2018, 10:08:02 PM »
Buckstopshere (Buck Buchanan) Who is a member here knows a lot about John Bivins.  He and Lew Sanchez owned a gun shop in Fayetteville NC during the period these Rifles were being made.  I thought he might have seen this thread and jumped in with some information by now.
 If I am not mistaken these rifle came with a test target and a Horn and Possible bag set.  With a Rifle like this you should get some nice clear pictures made. 
iloco

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2018, 10:17:14 PM »
well anyone seriously interested email me and I will share my phone number so you can call me....... I REALLY want one I can actually shoot..... but I was told by several people not to shoot this as it would hurt the value....

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2018, 10:21:57 PM »
as far as scratches there is one its more of a smear it is visible in the stock pic with the fancy engraving that is the only mark on the rifle..
yep the frizzen looks as though it has been struck a few times (but don't they fire them when they make them?)  no burns or anything from powder, barrel is perfect with my bore scope,  as I said email me if interested....what I would REALLY like to do is sell to a builder and have him make me a lightweight 50cal that I can actually use and make up the difference in cash...... that would be ideal........

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2018, 11:34:56 PM »
You have mail!
Stop Marxism in America

Offline mtlonghunter

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2018, 04:58:34 AM »
Well...... ok, here goes. I'm tickled you found a "John Bivens" rifle, and a bicentennial to boot, ! Nobody buys a $250,000 sports car and leaves it in the garage. So here's the deal, IT'S YOUR GUN. You wanted a nicer rifle to move up in the gun department and well you have. John Bivens was as much of an idol as Fess Parker. So if you bought it for your retirement or for your kids inheritance , sell it and move on. However, it's not always about money. Wouldn't it be fun to roam about the woods deer hunting with a genuine John Bivens? It's already been shot, so no difference there. I know of a guy who used to shoot his original Hawken . Didn't seem to effect its worth. Hey, if you want you could send it to Montana and we'll let everybody in  the club take a shot and Deny Ducet can film the whole thing for you. It's yours, enjoy it , that's what we are supposed to be doing in this hobby, having fun!

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2018, 05:29:36 AM »
I AGREE 100% MTLONGHUNTER!!!!!!!!!!!! I really do, believe me, today I put a new flint in her, and sat and thought----hmmmmm, how bad would it be to fire it....... I'm retired money is NOT an issue, but I got "the business" when I talked about "unpinning" the barrel to scrub it down....SO I'm still up in the air, a man just emailed and offered me 2500 for it, I talked to a gun maker in Lancaster today, he said 3000 MINIMUM 5 to 8k common..... SO I have no clue.... I think I will at the very least take it to Old Bedford Village Flintlock show in I think April and get some opinions there.....

Offline D. Buck Stopshere

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2018, 08:28:33 AM »
You are getting sage advice from experienced collectors, makers and students of the Longrifle here on this Forum. Being in business with my late "partner in grime", Lewis Sanchez, I was introduced to many of the "legends of gunmaking", Fred Riley, Bill Buchele, Mark Silver, John Braxton, and of course, John Bivins. One can view a number of John's works in Robert Weil's book.

One night, Lew called me to come over to his house to let me know of John's arrival and to view a combined effort of suberb workmanship "attended to" by four or five masters. It was, of course, "The Wheelock" (pages 36-41 in Weil's book). It was a marvel to see for only an hour before John drove back home.

Occasionally, I'll pull my Bivins rifle out of the safe to enjoy the beauty that John created for me back in 1977. It was ordered in 1974. Its an "abbreviated version" of the rifle John made for Lew, which, of course, graces the cover of the 1977 Gun Digest. The flintlock to its left on the dark blue cover was the early work of Monte Manderino, who worked with John.

The one distinguishing feature of mine is the position of the Siler lock. Its on the left side. It is John's first left-hand flintlock rifle. The lock was assembled by Monte, when he resided in Old Salem. It was from one of the first half-dozen left-hand kits that Bud sold.

Jim Chambers will be your best bet to see about its value.

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

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Offline snapper

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2018, 03:13:49 PM »
I picked up a Frank Bartlett rifle a couple of years ago and it appears to be worth quite a bit.  I did pull the barrel to look underneath.  I wanted to see who made the barrel.

I knew the risk and was very careful.  Might not of been the smartest thing I have ever done, but certainly not the most stupid.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2018, 05:06:50 PM »
Well...... ok, here goes. I'm tickled you found a "John Bivens" rifle, and a bicentennial to boot, ! Nobody buys a $250,000 sports car and leaves it in the garage. So here's the deal, IT'S YOUR GUN. You wanted a nicer rifle to move up in the gun department and well you have. John Bivens was as much of an idol as Fess Parker. So if you bought it for your retirement or for your kids inheritance , sell it and move on. However, it's not always about money. Wouldn't it be fun to roam about the woods deer hunting with a genuine John Bivens? It's already been shot, so no difference there. I know of a guy who used to shoot his original Hawken . Didn't seem to effect its worth. Hey, if you want you could send it to Montana and we'll let everybody in  the club take a shot and Deny Ducet can film the whole thing for you. It's yours, enjoy it , that's what we are supposed to be doing in this hobby, having fun!
I  find most $250,000 sports cars DO  sit in the garage and are never driven.
 I personally don't care what this guy does with this gun. When he mentioned he had to pull the barrel to clean it I knew with his limited experience with Thompson centers this gun was doomed to be abused and reduced in value. But as you and he state "It's his gun", he rich, he doesn't need the money and doesn't really care if he ruins it or not. Go ahead, dork it up, it's not my concern.
 From shooting a TC Renegade then falling into a Bivens Bicentennial rifle and not knowing what an important rifle you have. Life isn't fair sometimes...... ???
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 08:57:57 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline Hlbly

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2018, 05:11:33 PM »
Well said, Mike.

Offline varsity07840

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2018, 05:53:51 PM »
Jim has bought and sold these rifles.

Barbie recently showed me a safe full of rifles owned by a prominent collector. He asked Jim to periodically sell them for him. Just about every one of the contemporary masters is represented in this collection, including a petite Jaeger by Bivens.

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2018, 06:43:41 PM »
Mike Brooks, WOW, perhaps, just maybe you could explain how John Bivens himself shot this rifle, then cleaned it without hot soapy water?  He DID shoot the rifle at a target at least once from what I'm told......  I asked the question about removing the barrel because I AM ONLY FAMILIAR WITH THOMPSONS (PULL ONE KEY AND THE WHOLE BARREL FALLS OFF)......  How do you learn but by asking... PERHAPS a better response from you would be, hey if you HAVE to shoot it (which I just might do to irritate you ) here is how you can clean the barrel without risking damage removing it....or anything along those lines.......  As of now I just got done smearing the entire gun down in cosmoline to prevent rust--including the wood, and I have it laying near my woodburner to dry...... Beside that I have not touched it..... LOL and yes I'm kidding about the cosmoline and woodburner.......

Offline iloco

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2018, 07:02:52 PM »
I can see this gun is not going to be sold untill its made the rounds of finding the person who will pay the highest dollar for it. The value of the gun is what a person is willing to pay for it or what the person who owns it wants for it.
 The pictures are not good enough for me to make an offer.  I would like to see it in person or in better pictures.

I personly think there are people on this forum who builds as good a rifle as Bivins built.  Maybe better. A lot has happened since the 70's.


« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 07:13:39 PM by iloco »
iloco

Offline EC121

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2018, 07:35:59 PM »
There are any number of ways to clean a barrel without removing it.  I have quite a few that have never had the barrel removed and are shot regularly including a Bivins rifle from 1972.  A greased(to prevent leaks) toothpick in the touchhole will let you use whatever  you want to clean the gun.
Brice Stultz

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2018, 08:31:42 PM »
 Interesting thread here, especially Jim Chambers' posts.
 
  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2386.0

  Tim C.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2018, 09:00:17 PM »
Mike Brooks, WOW, perhaps, just maybe you could explain how John Bivens himself shot this rifle, then cleaned it without hot soapy water?  He DID shoot the rifle at a target at least once from what I'm told......  I asked the question about removing the barrel because I AM ONLY FAMILIAR WITH THOMPSONS (PULL ONE KEY AND THE WHOLE BARREL FALLS OFF)......  How do you learn but by asking... PERHAPS a better response from you would be, hey if you HAVE to shoot it (which I just might do to irritate you ) here is how you can clean the barrel without risking damage removing it....or anything along those lines.......  As of now I just got done smearing the entire gun down in cosmoline to prevent rust--including the wood, and I have it laying near my woodburner to dry...... Beside that I have not touched it..... LOL and yes I'm kidding about the cosmoline and woodburner.......
Go ahead, I'm generally irritated all the time anyway.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2018, 09:13:42 PM »
OK, one more stupid question.... is there anything I can use to simply "wipe off fingerprints" etc, on this rifle? I have simply wiped it down with a dry cotton SOFT towel, is there a special "anything" that you use to do so, or just leave it be...???? Please be nice? LOL......

brokenflint

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2018, 10:05:19 PM »
What are we talking about here?  Fingerprints on the wood or fingerprints in the metal work? 

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2018, 11:22:33 PM »
IB was John Bivins’ stamp.  In colonial times sometimes J’s looked like I’s.

Little late chiming in, but the marking is actually an "J" not a "J" that looks like an "I." There was originally was no letter "J" in the Latin alphabet. The English first adopted it from the French sometime in the early 17th century if I recall correctly. The modern letter "J" is derived from the original Latin "I," and "I" use in place of "J" in both the 18th and 19th century as well as the modern day is essentially a throw back to marks of older gunmakers.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 11:24:53 PM by The Rambling Historian »
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Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2018, 07:10:07 AM »
Hello Robpack,

First, welcome to ALR.  Some of us are old, and some of us are crotchety, but we're not all old and crotchety.  Hang in there with us, we really are a great group.

I am apparently in the minority, but I remove the barrel of my full-stock longrifles for cleaning after every shooting session.  The times that I tried cleaning with the barrel in the stock, I managed to get black fouling water/stain all over my gunstock.  NO more!  If you are careful, you will have no problems.  Here's what I do.  Remove the lock.  One of the lock screws may go thru the breechplug bolster.  You will want the lock out to clean it properly anyway.  Remove the screw(s) that goes thru the barrel tang.  Remove the pins that hold the stock to the barrel.  Make sure the pins aren't tapered, bigger on one side than the other.  I ran into that once on an antique  Use a punch that's a little smaller than the pins.  It shouldn't take much pressure to push them out.  Keep track of what came out of which hole.

Spread a towel or something soft on your benchtop or table.  Once you have all the barrel attachment screws and pins removed, turn the gun barrel-side down, with the muzzle resting on the towel and the breech end an inch or 2 above the towel.  Hold the stock at the wrist with one hand and with the other hand give the underside of the stock a light tap or 2.  The barrel should fall out.  Don't force it.  Set the stock in a safe, out of the way place.

My "cleaning fluid" is a dash of dish soap in a coffee can full of luke warm tap water.  Put a toothpick in the touchhole and pour the barrel full of the soapy water.  Let it sit while you clean the lock with soapy water and a toothbrush, followed by a liberal spraying with WD-40.  Set the lock aside to let the WD-40 run off.  Pour the water out of the barrel.  Fill it up again, dump it out.  Remove the toothpick.  Put the breech end of the barrel in the coffee can full of soapy water.  With fairly tight fitting patches, pump water in and out of the barrel.  This will jet clean the inside of the touchhole.  Switch to new patches periodically.  Once the patches are coming out clean, use several dry patches, then I follow with WD-40 to chase the water out, followed by Barricade rust preventative. 

Once the barrel is clean and dry, lay it sights-side down on your bench-top pad.  Retrieve your stock and fit it down over the barrel, line up the tang, it should slide right in.  Replace the pins and screws.  Wipe the lock dry and reinstall it.  I use Johnson's paste wax on the finished wood.

Enjoy your rifle.  It's a rare bird.

-Ron
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 12:24:44 AM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline sqrldog

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2018, 07:33:27 AM »
Enjoy your rifle. I own two Bivins rifles equal in value or more than the value of the Bivins rifle you own. Shoot them when and if I get ready clean them oil them put them back up simple. I belong to the group that cleans without pulling the barrel as I have never seen a need too take a fullstock flint barrel out to clean it. Those that do certainly can clean that way without a comment from me. Mark Silver owns the last rifle Bivins made he routinely hunts with it or at least he did while hunting with me. You have a nice Bivins made rifle but certainly not the most valuable he made. Enjoy it that's what they're made for.  If you decide to sell it talk to Jim Chambers, he probably could give you an estimate on its value. Tim

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2018, 07:58:38 AM »
Thank you guys for all the valuable advice..... I have been in contact with Jim Chambers and John Getz, he is supposed to be calling me in the next few days....... I truly am DYING to see how accurate this 42 year old rifle is..... I actually ran a few oiled patches down the barrel this evening, they came out clean.......... I may just keep this rifle and use it for "light flintlock hunts"..... Park the truck, walk in the woods and stand.... Definitely not going to be walking any long distances or through brush with it... Once again, thanks for all the great advice.... I AM still a bit confused on the "cleaning the bore while it is attached to the stock"? You would think some black powder would get "down under" the barrel?  Would that not cause corrosion?  I know my thompsons ALWAYS have some powder "seep" down under the octagon barrels---I always wipe em out with a damp cloth and let them dry before re assembly.........
THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE ADVICE!!!!! I WISH IT WAS FLINTLOCK SEASON HERE IN PA!!!!!!!!!

Offline Telgan

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Re: John BIvens Becentennial 50 cal....
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2018, 03:31:40 PM »
Life is too short to hunt with ugly guns - Enjoy the heck out of it while you are it's care taker - Conversely, some of the ugly ones are some of the best ones.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 03:33:52 PM by Telgan »