Author Topic: Odd coloured guns??  (Read 9986 times)

Offline hanshi

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2018, 10:43:35 PM »
I tend to think plain guns/rifles can look okay painted; but not loud and garish colors.  Toned down red/blue/yellow and even gray or black sound just fine.
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2018, 02:23:58 AM »
Leman usually painted the stripes on his otherwise plain maple stocks.

He did make rifles & smoothbores both for the Gov't to provide Western Indians as part of treaty obligations.

Some were painted a solid color, not striped. Personally I think it would require less hours of labor. Dunno cost of milk paint in 1860.
I am aware of red, haven't  heard of other colors. Which just means I have not heard of them.

One such red rifle was bought by a Caucasian fellow in Eastern Pennsylvania, who subsequently moved west or midwest. Details not to hand. I have considered using red milk paint to finish such a Leman .50, not moving too fast on it tho (glacial, one might say).

Offline Waksupi

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2018, 09:27:18 PM »
I did see a trade gun a collector had at Polson, Montana that was originally a bright orange, that had faded quite a bit.
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Offline conquerordie

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2018, 09:36:30 PM »
I say  go with what is historically correct. The blue Clay used for his trade guns was a common color used for furniture and other objects. Believe it was researched by CW. Might look funky to us, but maybe not so in the 18th century.
Greg

Offline hanshi

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2018, 09:56:21 PM »
Not trying to change the subject but what exactly is "milk paint"?  I hear the term here and there but never knew what it was.
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Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2018, 09:48:05 PM »

Offline little joe

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2018, 11:31:46 PM »
I think the color is Prussian Blue, a period correct color.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2018, 12:01:13 AM »
Those little blue shotguns look ready for a Hello Kitty logo.
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Offline fahnenschmied

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2018, 10:48:02 PM »
The blue guns at Williamsburg originate from this quote, a recollection that was written down some half century after the event:  "they repaired to the magazine and armed themselves with blue painted stock guns kept for the purpose of distributing among the Indians".  I am not sure enough care was taken in the interpretation of this.  There are no trade ledgers, inventories, etc, anywhere that mention blue painted guns.  No painting, watercolors, etc of natives show them with guns colored any other way than natural wood - with the exception of  few "vine painted" examples.  Is "blue" mentioned in reference to 18th century guns procured for the trade in North America?  Yes, and often - in regards to the barrel finish.  So many dozen with four foot barrels, bright, or "white" and so many dozen, "blue".  There is a very good chance that this "Blue" in the description of the guns referred to their bright blue BARRELS as opposed to the bright finish of military muskets.  "Painted" might mean a very reddish varnish on the presumably cheap beechwood stocks, or possibly grain painted to look like better wood, or, perhaps painted with designs on a natural wood colored background.  Some ledgers mention "mottled stocks" - just what that is, fake grain painting, I don't know.  But - my point is, there are absolutely no references, no documentation, from the 18th century about trade guns whose stocks are painted blue.  None.  Just one remembrance from the 19th century, which is open to more than one interpretation.  I wonder if those same guns had been made of poorly seasoned wood, and the fellow said "we took those cheap trade guns with the green wooden stocks" - would the folks at Williamsburg have painted them green instead?
   Yet off they run, in haste to paint guns blue.....and what color of blue anyway?  It can be anything from pastel duck egg blue to almost black.  Since there are no mention of blue PAINT on gunstocks whatsoever from the 18th century, nor written records of what shade were preferred, nor paintings made of savages with blue painted gunstocks - why, any shade is okay  - can't prove it one way or the other.
   Ive got no problems with painting a sea service musket black.  Lots of documentation for that....but a trade gun, painted blue?  None, from the 18th century.  Blued barrels, yes.  I wonder if that possibility was even considered by the gun painters?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2018, 11:09:35 PM »
I like your reasoning...and welcome to this site.
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Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2018, 12:33:09 AM »
I bought an old fowling piece from the early 20th century(not going to say anything about  that) it had the forearm attached with baling wire and was painted, barrel and all. The painter had used a blue very much like that blue used on the tradeguns today. A blue similar was used for trim on a lot of houses in this area to keep haints out. You also see it on a lot of painted furniture from this area.
Bob


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Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2018, 12:53:16 AM »
Also saw a belt axe found on an island on Waccamaw River that had a bit of the handle remaining in the eye. When it dried out and became loose, it was blue where it was protected. There was evidence of indigo production on this island and this may have been from that, who knows.
Bob
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Offline conquerordie

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2018, 11:42:38 PM »
The blue guns at Williamsburg originate from this quote, a recollection that was written down some half century after the event:  "they repaired to the magazine and armed themselves with blue painted stock guns kept for the purpose of distributing among the Indians".  I am not sure enough care was taken in the interpretation of this.  There are no trade ledgers, inventories, etc, anywhere that mention blue painted guns.  No painting, watercolors, etc of natives show them with guns colored any other way than natural wood - with the exception of  few "vine painted" examples.  Is "blue" mentioned in reference to 18th century guns procured for the trade in North America?  Yes, and often - in regards to the barrel finish.  So many dozen with four foot barrels, bright, or "white" and so many dozen, "blue".  There is a very good chance that this "Blue" in the description of the guns referred to their bright blue BARRELS as opposed to the bright finish of military muskets.  "Painted" might mean a very reddish varnish on the presumably cheap beechwood stocks, or possibly grain painted to look like better wood, or, perhaps painted with designs on a natural wood colored background.  Some ledgers mention "mottled stocks" - just what that is, fake grain painting, I don't know.  But - my point is, there are absolutely no references, no documentation, from the 18th century about trade guns whose stocks are painted blue.  None.  Just one remembrance from the 19th century, which is open to more than one interpretation.  I wonder if those same guns had been made of poorly seasoned wood, and the fellow said "we took those cheap trade guns with the green wooden stocks" - would the folks at Williamsburg have painted them green instead?
   Yet off they run, in haste to paint guns blue.....and what color of blue anyway?  It can be anything from pastel duck egg blue to almost black.  Since there are no mention of blue PAINT on gunstocks whatsoever from the 18th century, nor written records of what shade were preferred, nor paintings made of savages with blue painted gunstocks - why, any shade is okay  - can't prove it one way or the other.
   Ive got no problems with painting a sea service musket black.  Lots of documentation for that....but a trade gun, painted blue?  None, from the 18th century.  Blued barrels, yes.  I wonder if that possibility was even considered by the gun painters?
Dunno,
When I made mine, I spoke to Clay Smith alot. He spoke of references to red, blue, yellow, striped and spotted stocks. I spotted mine. For another side of the argument maybe email him at his website. See what he has to say. They might have been European ledgers, not colonial that describes said guns.
Greg

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2018, 12:00:28 AM »
Is`nt it the painting "The death of General Wolfe" that shows an Indian , with a gun with painted designs on the stock?

Not that I can see:
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Offline JTR

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2018, 12:21:19 AM »
Is`nt it the painting "The death of General Wolfe" that shows an Indian , with a gun with painted designs on the stock?

Not that I can see:


Click on the picture and enlarge it.. Painted butt on the injun gun...
John
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2018, 12:25:04 AM »
Rambling Historian,  I didn't see it either until I clicked on the picture.  The native American in the foreground has a rifle with geometric shapes painted on. 

The painting was done in 1770, so I might trust that.  The native also has geometric tattoos.  Interesting. 

Bob Hill, thank you for the notes on the gun and the axe.  Fascinating!   

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2018, 12:29:30 AM »
Just studied the picture some more.  Look close at the guy in green.  Two shooting bags, one highly beaded including the strap.  What are those beaded things on his legs?  Fascinating detail.

The paint on the native's rifle is pretty elaborate.  A sunrise near the buttplate.  The serpentine line goes all the way up the stock.  Crazy cool.  Someone needs to reproduce this one. 

God Bless,  Marc

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2018, 12:31:28 AM »
I wonder if the gun that West used as a prop was painted that way when it was built, or decorated by its Indian owner. I kind of suspect the latter.
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2018, 12:33:45 AM »
Here you go.....


Man in green......



Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2018, 12:38:53 AM »
Just studied the picture some more.  Look close at the guy in green.  Two shooting bags, one highly beaded including the strap.  What are those beaded things on his legs?  Fascinating detail.

The paint on the native's rifle is pretty elaborate.  A sunrise near the buttplate.  The serpentine line goes all the way up the stock.  Crazy cool.  Someone needs to reproduce this one. 

God Bless,  Marc

I think one of those shooting bags is actually a his horn. Rounded on the end with what looks like a lobe. There is another horn, from the man behind him, under his left arm. Note that both horns are brown in color,
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 12:43:02 AM by Clark B »
Psalms 144

Offline hanshi

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2018, 09:51:49 PM »
I studied the closeups and simply do not see any color, other than normal wood finish, on any of the guns.  ???
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline fahnenschmied

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2018, 10:56:53 PM »
There is not much of a color, but there is something - perhaps red.  Whatever it is, it doesn't appear to be part of the normal wood color.


Offline Joe R

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2018, 01:23:29 AM »



If you search to the image provided by google and zoom in it’s pretty clear that something has been drawn on the stock.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2018, 09:09:48 PM »
Clay Smith's version of West's trade gun: http://claysmithguns.com/lightening3.htm

Smith's version is yellow on red paint, whereas the one in the painting is red on natural wood, I think. I prefer the original, I think.
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Offline Robby

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Re: Odd coloured guns??
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2018, 11:02:15 PM »
I'll never make one but I think those blue guns are pretty darn cool.
Robby
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