Clean Powder

[Gary W.E.]

Where I live it is very hard to find black powder on a regular basis. Now I have a supply I can count on and would appreciate your opinion. I have a 40 cal target rifle that no matter how I very the load or patch, Goex 3f burns very dirty in my gun. I have an option to purchase different powders now but I have to drive 150 miles round trip to get it. Can anyone advise me on a cleaner powder to purchase? Trying to save a little money in travel and powder purchases

[smylee grouch]

Most places in the US can be shipped to. Is your load combo a tight enough fit ? If your patch/ball combo is not right you could be getting blow by and extra fouling. Have you tried Swiss? A lot of dedicated target shooters swear by Swiss claiming it shoot cleaner. I use Swiss and can shoot all day and never have a fouling build up using denim and tracks mink oil and don't clean between shots but when I use teflon patching in my light bench gun I clean between shots. The teflon shoots the tightest groups of anything I have tried in my guns. Just some food for thought.

[little joe]

What kind of barrel?

[Flint62Smoothie]

Can't say as far as build up, but Schuetzen powder, although hits where my Goex loads do, cleans up in 2-3X less patches than Goex does. That was learned in the years when I burned through 8 or more pounds of powdah a year, so lots of cleaning!

Maybe you need to patch it tighter and ram it down harder (proven to lower the std deviation between shots) to get a more complete burn?

Or change your lube? I highly recommend you try Hoppe's Black Powdah Patch Lube ... NOT their typical modern firearm cleaning solvent, but their special (hard to find sometimes) BP patch lube. FWIW I put about 30-shots through a 75-cal flint smoothbore the other day without cleaning ... using 90-grain charges of 1Fg powdah.

[Gary W.E.]

Thanks to all for the help! I have a Rice Barrel and it is WAY more accurate than the current operator! It is way more cheaper for me to drive down and get my powder than to pay the shipping charges. They sell both types of powder mentioned so far is these posts and I will get a pound each to try. The Hoppe's Black Powdah Patch Lube also has my interest. Can’t thank you guys enough!

[T*O*F]

Just a couple of things to consider.  You have a small bore, therefore less surface area.  Using the same load in a .45 or .50 cal. would result in less "perceived" fouling.  I forget the math, but small increments in diameter result in huge gains of surface area.

Also, Goex is a relatively moist burning powder.  Schuetzen or Swiss may be cleaner burning but the fouling may be harder which can cause loading difficulties.

You can't compare what others say who shoot larger calibers to your gun.  You have to experiment to find what patch, powder, and lube work for your rifle.

[OldMtnMan]

Gary............What experience do you have with black powder? What did you shoot before using the Goex?

 In general, black powder is a dirty powder. Even the expensive Swiss.

[L. Akers]

I have come to really like Jack's Battle Powder from Jack's Powder Keg.  It's Goex powder but without the graphite (carbon) coating so it shoots much cleaner than regular Goex.  My last shipment was $11.00/lb, delivered.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Where I live it is very hard to find black powder on a regular basis. Now I have a supply I can count on and would appreciate your opinion. I have a 40 cal target rifle that no matter how I very the load or patch, Goex 3f burns very dirty in my gun. I have an option to purchase different powders now but I have to drive 150 miles round trip to get it. Can anyone advise me on a cleaner powder to purchase? Trying to save a little money in travel and powder purchases

You need to try different patch thickness and also different lubes. Your combo now is not getting completely burned so you are having more fowling in  the bore. Each rifle is a science on to itself - you must learn what your rifle likes the best - good luck .

[Daryl]

Where I live it is very hard to find black powder on a regular basis. Now I have a supply I can count on and would appreciate your opinion. I have a 40 cal target rifle that no matter how I very the load or patch, Goex 3f burns very dirty in my gun. I have an option to purchase different powders now but I have to drive 150 miles round trip to get it. Can anyone advise me on a cleaner powder to purchase? Trying to save a little money in travel and powder purchases

My .40 cal. Goodoien barrel had a .398" bore, with .010" rifling.  I used a .395" mould which cast a .398" ball, and a 10 ounce denim patch, which I measure compressed at .0225". The gun also shot fine with that same ball and an 8 ounce denim patch, which I measure at .019" compressed. This bore had very wide grooves and narrow lands.

Even with the thicker patch, I can push the patched ball into the muzzle using only the stud on my starter and pressing it with my right hand- no hitting needed.  The PURE lead ball (as pure as I can get) conforms in to the bore, perfectly. The crown's shape is VERY important and must be made smooth to reduce friction & allow the lead to move, conform into the bore - IF the barrel's best accuracy is desired.

This is the crown, on that muzzle.


I use mostly GOEX 3F but also developed target-loads with 2f GOEX for that rifle.  When using a slippery oily patch lube, I needed 65gr. 3F and achieved 1/2", 5-shot groups at 50yards.  I found that 75.0gr. 2f was required with the same slippery lube to get identical accuracy. I NEVER had any fouling buildup in the bore - never. Whether I shot a 20 shot trail, or went through close to 100shots in a day, the bore NEVER needed wiping or cleaning. I go to the range to shoot, I clean the bore after I get home.
My .45 cal barrel needed 75.0gr. 3f and 85.0gr. of 2F for the same accuracy.  In it, I used a .445" ball and the same 10 ounce denim patch in it, as well, producing most groups with 4 our of 5 shots inside 1/2" at 50 yards.  This GM barrel did not like the 8 ounce, .019" patch for some reason. It still shot cleanly with it, never needing wiping, but the accuracy was at to just over an inch at 50 yards off a rest, not the 1/2" as with the thicker patches.  This rifle has a .450" bore and a similar crown.  After using a tapered grinding stone with EMERY or wet/dry paper on it, I use the end of my thumb for finishing off the nicely rounded, smooth crown.
If the crown has sharp, machine tool cut edges, whether an angle tool was used or not, the crown will not allow you to seat a tight combination in it. A tight combination is needed for accuracy and clean shooting.  If you use a tight load, with sufficient lubrication to soften the fouling, the fouling never gets to build up and only the fouling from the last shot is in the bore. That fouling is easily pushed down with the next wet lubed patch.

[hanshi]

In the .40 that I shoot - a GM barrel - mink oil and Hoppe's BP lube both load easily even though quite snug.  Patching is usually cotton canvas duck and the combo allows all day shooting without cleaning as Daryl mentioned.  Smoothing the crown definitely does make a difference.

[Gary W.E.]

My black powder experience is limited to only the Goex powder. My shooting consists of only 25/50 yard range and I use 30 grains of powder behind my 40 cal ball. (30 grains is recommended by Rice) I am not really having a problem with the accuracy of the gun but the operator has room for improvement! The only place I am having the real fouling problem is right where the ball seats against the powder. If I do not swab in between shots the port between the cap and charge becomes blocked and my gun fails to fire. I have tried several different patch and lube combinations and although I have made the situation better, I just want to hear from the experts and hope to get some ideas. I am thinking maybe other powders might be better but I just want to hear other opinions than my own! Believe me, all ideas are appreciated!

[Darkhorse]

I have a .40 rice and when I finished the build and hit the range I was very disappointed. I was loading .395 round balls. I tried both 2f and 3f goex, several different patches and thickness's, and even though the 3f was cleaner burning I could still hardly load the second shot. The third was almost impossible. Also some patches were cut at the muzzle some down in the barrel.
I had bought a bottle of LeHigh Valley patch lube and cleaner but had never tried it. So one day I lubed a patch with it and to my surprise it cut right through the fouling and seated with no  problem. It was also extremely accurate.
That was over 10 years ago and that barrel is well broken in now, I can shoot any patch and basically any lube now with no problem, but the LeHigh Valley remains one of the most accurate.
I still shoot 3fg and .395 round balls. 30 grains is my 25 and 50 yard load. I now practice with .015 patches and at 25 yards it shoots one hole groups.
Give the LeHigh Valley a try it might work for you also.

[Don Steele]

Gary,
I'm not sure what this means: "...the port between the cap and charge becomes blocked and my gun fails to fire. "
It sounds like you have a Rice barrel on a caplock rifle. I'm not sure what the "port" is that you're referring to.
At this point, just a wild guess though is that you don't have a powder problem. Some other facets of BP shooting do come to mind however:
1. You may have a lube problem. Poor choice of lube, or too little, or too much.
2. Patch thickness and material choice have been discussed so far, but we don't know what you're using so I'm going to say for the moment...if you're not already using it, get hold of some commercially available BP patch material in a common thickness like .015 or .020 and let's take that variable off the table.
OTOH, if you're already using a common BP patch ignore this. I've seen folks having "issues" that were trying to use old cotton/poly blend T-shirts for patching so I thought this worth mentioning.
3. CLEANING...Are you starting with a CLEAN barrel ?? Is the breech face free of buildup ?? If you're working with some kind of "patent breech" is the channel clean, dry and free of buildup..??
4. Wiping between shots is a great idea but if not done correctly will cause more problems than it solves. Improperly sized jag on the end of your wiping rod, and/or wiping patch that is too thick, and/or too much cleaning solution on your wiping patch can ALL combine to create the phenomenon you describe.
Given all these potential bumps in your road to enjoying that rifle...my last thought is to recommend you contact the NMLRA (National Muzzleloader Rifle Association) to find some experienced BP shooters near you. Take the time to go to one of their shoots. Take your rifle and all your gear and ask a LOT of questions. 

[rich pierce]

!The only place I am having the real fouling problem is right where the ball seats against the powder. If I do not swab in between shots the port between the cap and charge becomes blocked and my gun fails to fire. I have tried several different patch and lube combinations and although I have made the situation better, I just want to hear from the experts and hope to get some ideas. I am thinking maybe other powders might be better but I just want to hear other opinions than my own! Believe me, all ideas are appreciated!

Ok, it’s a caplock.  Drum and nipple or patent breech?  Can you run a pipe cleaner easily from the nipple seat into the bore?  Do you pump water through the breech without the nipple in place when you clean?

[Hungry Horse]

This sounds like a lube problem. A large number of lubes used today aren’t comparable with high heat, and polymerase when they come in contact with it. The old timers used bear grease, or venison tallow, or a mixture of the two. These lubes don’t have these problems.

  Hungry Horse

[Gary W.E.]

Thank you all!!!

[Clark Badgett]

This sounds like a lube problem. A large number of lubes used today aren’t comparable with high heat, and polymerase when they come in contact with it. The old timers used bear grease, or venison tallow, or a mixture of the two. These lubes don’t have these problems.

  Hungry Horse

They also used whale oil and sweet oil. Most any oil will polymerise with heat and time. Lard can be used as a metal cutting lubricant, I would how it would fare as a patch grease.

[Darkhorse]

Gary, What is your procedure for cleaning the barrel after your done shooting?

[Gary W.E.]

Dark Horse—You hit the nail on the head as far as your description of your 40 except for the cut patches. I was warned by Rice that the cut patches may occur during break in but could get past that issue if I had my barrel lead lapped. I did and the patches could be shot again. I took my gun out yesterday and shot 10 groups with it free hand at 25 yards. My worst group was 2-5/8” with no malfunction of my gun. (I know this is not world class targets but for me it is really good) I had to swab between shots to do this. I think the problem is this simple. I think my gun is so dirty after a shot that when I ram the next shot down the barrel I am covering up the port between the cap and charge and it won’t fire. (On a flintlock this is called the touch hole but I don’t know what to call this port on a cap lock.) I am definitely going to try the LeHigh Valley you suggested to see if this will help.

[Darkhorse]

What  you are describing once had a common name, 30+ years ago, mainly associated with flintlocks, it was called a clinker or clinger depending on who was saying it. Simply put it's a piece of hard fouling that's moved and now covers the touch hole. The one's I've gotten were when I tried to swab out a badly fouled barrel and all the fouling didn't get pulled out. This is the only situation I'll use a vent pick. I have never had it happen on a caplock but I see how it's possible. As Rich Pierce suggested try running a pipe cleaner through the nipple as far as possible before loading your next shot.
One thing I do after many shots and I decide to do a quick field cleaning before doing any more shooting is to run a couple of patches soaked with water down the barrel. Then plug the vent, or turn the rifle vent or nipple side up, and squirt some water down the barrel. Give it a minute to soften the fouling then run a wet patch back down and it will push most of that fouling out the vent. Finish with a few dry patches and before loading again snap 2 or 3 caps to dry out any moisture.
It doesn't sound like you are getting your rifle completely clean at the end of the day. That's why I asked how you cleaned your rifle. Is it possible for you to attach a photo of your lock area so we can see your nipple and drum setup?

[hanshi]

I would think the powder charge would cover the vent hole preventing bore fouling from reaching that far.  Oh, well, it may be the fault of your cleaning regimen or the wiping between shots; lube can always be a potential problem.  Black powder is dirty and none is clean.  I've used several brands/granulations and any difference in fouling has been miniscule.  Regardless of type, all BP produce around 50% [+ or -] solid residue when fired.  This is the fouling, smoke, etc, that you see.  BP is a forgiving and accurate propellant but not in the least efficient compared with smokeless.   

[Gary W.E.]

After each shoot I swab the barrel inside and out with a water based solvent before I leave the range. I go home and immediately remove my barrel (Half stock TC) and put it in hot soapy water. I use a jag and patch to swab the barrel and draw and push the cleaner thru the barrel and nipple. I remove the nipple and brush the threads. I inspect the port/touch hole and push a pick thru it. I then brush and patch the barrel several more times. I flush the barrel with clean hot water and drain.
I then run a wet patch of gun solvent to remove anything left in the barrel and there usually is a dark film on the patch. I clean in this manner until the patches are clean. It usually only takes one patch but then a couple to dry, I hang the barrel upside down for 24 hours until it is dry. I apply oil to the bore and exterior of the barrel. I clean the bore with solvent before I shoot.
I have no doubt that I can run a white patch down the barrel 2 weeks later and it would be clean coming out.
I will need to send pics later, I am running out of time to go somewhere. Again. Thanks for the help

[Darkhorse]

I will offer a slight change to your procedure, instead of hanging the barrel upside down for 24 hours try this. Hang it upside down ( I place my muzzle on a paper towel and stand it in a corner) for 1 hour, this is time enough for the wettest to drain out, follow by 3 or 4 dry patches, saturate a patch with WD-40 and swab the barrel with that, I even spray some down the bore so it gets into all the little crevasses at the breech and Touch hole, let it sit a few minutes then run 2 or 3 more dry patches down. The WD-40 will get all the remaining moisture out of the barrel. Oil it as usual and your good to go. 24 hours allows too much time for rust to start somewhere. Otherwise your cleaning regimen sounds a lot l like mine did when I had TC's, I will remove my Longrifle barrels regularly and clean basically the same way.
So you have a TC with a Rice barrel? How did you manage that?

[Gary W.E.]

Dark horse—How I wound up with my TC? Long story and a LOT of mistakes! I kept my ears and eyes open at the competitions’ I go to and Rice Barrels kept being mentioned as a very good barrel. I like the TC platform because it is very easy to clean. I went to Friendship 2 years ago and talked to a Rice Rep and he told me about their barrels and that Rice was again making drop in barrels for the TC. I placed an order at the Fall National Shoot at Friendship last year and I just can’t say enough good about it.
It might take me a day or two to get the picture you requested. I have a match today and will be pretty busy. I am still very interested to try the lube and cleaner you suggested to see if that may help with my issue. I will update my post with the results. Thanks Again!