Clean Powder

[little joe]

Gary Do me a favor and try  spit as a lube. Will not cost very much. I am not much of a believer in a greasy lube for target shooting.I,m no expert but in my day I shoot some fair targets and have helped many younger shooters reach there potential. Give it a try.

[Marcruger]

In regards to "clean" powder, I see a difference between Swiss and Goex. 

Goex produces more "crud" in my experience, but  the Swiss "crud" is harder.  My climate in the South may have something to do with that of course. 

On cleanup, the Swiss fouling doesn't produce as much muddy black water when poured from the barrel.  That said, the harder Swiss fouling seems to take just as much time and as many patches to get clean.  Some days are worse on cleaning than others.  I do "tight patch" my loads. 

On a flintlock, my process is to first scrape the breech face with a scraper, and dump the black flakes out.  I then plug the vent tightly with a round toothpick, then trap the toothpick and a patch under the frizzen.  The patch catches any drop that may sneak by the toothpick.  I then fill the bore with lukewarm water and let it sit.  After a few minutes, I pour the water out and then run a few patches down the bore. I will also run my nylon bore brush down.  I then refill with water, and repeat the patches until clean.  Near the end of the cleaning, I switch to a water-displacing oil/cleaner to finish off the scrubbing instead of water.  The NEXT day, I come back and wipe out the bore and add the bore protectant.  Just my method on a flat breech gun.  On a patent breech cap gun I pull the barrel and flush it. 

I hope this helps the OP.  God Bless,  Marc

[Gary W.E.]

This forum is so interesting to me that it is starting to get addictive! LOL. Getting ready for a "Chicken Shoot" today and will try a spit patch.

I sure have a lot of new ideas to try and appreciate them all!

[Leatherbark]

If you have steel loading rod with a jag on it, try this during your match if you load from the bench.  After seating your ball down in the muzzle with the short starter take a cleaning patch and lick it and place it on the jag and push the ball down against the powder cleaning the fouling as you seat the ball. This precludes you sending clinkers down against the communication hole blocking ignition. It is really quick to do. Swabbing as you are seating the ball.  Never a misfire again.

Bob

[OldMtnMan]

If you have steel loading rod with a jag on it, try this during your match if you load from the bench.  After seating your ball down in the muzzle with the short starter take a cleaning patch and lick it and place it on the jag and push the ball down against the powder cleaning the fouling as you seat the ball. This precludes you sending clinkers down against the communication hole blocking ignition. It is really quick to do. Swabbing as you are seating the ball.  Never a misfire again.

Bob

I can't see it? The spit patch is behind the PRB. Nothing has changed. It's still the same as not using the spit patch.

[Daryl]

If you have steel loading rod with a jag on it, try this during your match if you load from the bench.  After seating your ball down in the muzzle with the short starter take a cleaning patch and lick it and place it on the jag and push the ball down against the powder cleaning the fouling as you seat the ball. This precludes you sending clinkers down against the communication hole blocking ignition. It is really quick to do. Swabbing as you are seating the ball.  Never a misfire again.

Bob

Interesting concept, however as I seat the patched ball, I am swabbing the previous shot's fouling and pushing it down with the ball. As that ball and fouling is seated on top of the powder, it is

 impossible to block anything with it. There is no need nor value in putting another patch on the rod that would wipe the bore above the patched ball.  All my patched balls have .005" to .010"

compression in the bottom of each groove. This is what cleans the bore between shots, just as Ned Robert's wrote in 1934, in "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle".  I find those rules work exactly

 the same in flinters too, of course.

I do not get misfires - except the odd time with a flinter.  When shooting the trail, I just load, prime and shoot, paying no attention to the flint.  If I have  have a hang-fire, I napp the fling.  If I

 have a flash in the pan, it is because the frizzen edge has shoved a bit of fouling over the vent. I prick the vent- next shot goes off. If I have a complete failure to make fire, the flint needs

napping - I do that along with the next one and likely the next 10 to 20 after that will go off perfectly.  I just see no reason nor value in all this wiping.

However, if you want to wipe after or during seating the ball and this helps your shooting experience, have at it.

If you want to wipe between shots - do that too, or any combination of the above. That just seems like too much fuss for me and I'd rather be shooting than wiping.

[Mike from OK]

Gary Do me a favor and try  spit as a lube. Will not cost very much. I am not much of a believer in a greasy lube for target shooting.I,m no expert but in my day I shoot some fair targets and have helped many younger shooters reach there potential. Give it a try.

I agree. Never be afraid to change it up...

I am a big fan of Track's Trappers Mink Tallow. But if conditions are right it will contribute to some of the thickest fouling I've encountered.

Last summer I loaded up and went out to my preferred shooting spot... The ranch owned by members of my family. I set up a target and shot a handful of times. I noticed reloads becoming progressively harder. I finally had to stop and swab out the barrel. Patch after patch of greasy, gummy fouling. I decided to switch to wetting my patches with saliva and encountered no further excessive fouling.

What were the contributing factors to the fouling? Humidity appeared to be the main culprit.

The ranch is roughly 6 miles out of town. While I was there shooting I noticed the rumble of thunder in the distance and could feel the air thicken. When I returned to my home in town, the streets were wet and there were puddles. Oklahoma isn't the deep south. But we get our share of humidity. And when a thundershower moves into the area, the humidity goes off the chart.

Do I blame Track's Mink Oil specifically? No. It is my belief that any heavy or oily lube would have likely resulted in the same condition.

What I have blathered on and on to say is that weather conditions are just one more variable to consider when shooting. Lubes that contribute to minimal fouling in certain weather may contribute to drastically more fouling in different weather.

Keep a mental note (or even better, a written log) of all the variables you can when you shoot. It can pay dividends.

Mike

[smylee grouch]

I have noticed some shooters when they load with any grease type of lube smear the stuff on the surface of the patch and have an excessive amount of the stuff on the patch. I like to dip the patch in melted lube and squeeze the excess off the surface. I have never had a fouling problem shooting tight loads this way even in humid weather.

[OldMtnMan]

I just put Mink Oil on one side of the patch. It's not needed on both sides. I just rub some in with my thumb and then always let it sit a few days in a loading block.

Liquidfying the lube and dipping the patch in it seems like too much lube to me. Even if you do squeeze it. The fact you have to squeeze it shows too much was applied.

[Daryl]

I have noticed some shooters when they load with any grease type of lube smear the stuff on the surface of the patch and have an excessive amount of the stuff on the patch. I like to dip the patch in melted lube and squeeze the excess off the surface. I have never had a fouling problem shooting tight loads this way even in humid weather.

ditto - never have any oily residue or fouling and cold water cleans it up just fine. Dry weather, ie: low humidity shooting will show if your combination and patch lube do their job.  Rendezvous B.C. takes place near Kamloops B.C. and most every year, we have temps in the 90's or more along with humidity from about 6% with clean bright skies to about 80% or 85% when it's peeing down rain.

Bone dry weather is the time when lubes either pass or fail with fouling buildup. Most of us see no difference in loading whether 6% or 85% humidity, over the course of fire, which is usually 21 to 22 shots per trail.

[Mike from OK]

I swipe one side of the patch over the lube and press it in my board/block. Lube is sufficient but not excessive.

The only thing noticeably different on the day in my previous post was a perceptible change in humidity. The shooting session began with typical summer day humidity and went to oppressively humid in a relatively short amount of time as the storm moved across the horizon.

Perhaps it was the rapid change in humidity that effected the fouling... I don't know. I do know that switching over to a spit patch kept me shooting without having to continually stop and swab out fouling.

That is the only incident that I have had with the Mink Tallow.

Mike

[Dphariss]

Where I live it is very hard to find black powder on a regular basis. Now I have a supply I can count on and would appreciate your opinion. I have a 40 cal target rifle that no matter how I very the load or patch, Goex 3f burns very dirty in my gun. I have an option to purchase different powders now but I have to drive 150 miles round trip to get it. Can anyone advise me on a cleaner powder to purchase? Trying to save a little money in travel and powder purchases

You can get Swiss delivered to your door. Its cleaner than Goex but not cheaper. Just buy enough to defray the hazmat fees. If other shooters will pool the money BEFORE the order, its legal to buy a case of powder and then give it to the guys that gave you the money for the order. But check local laws.

Dan

[Dphariss]

If you have steel loading rod with a jag on it, try this during your match if you load from the bench.  After seating your ball down in the muzzle with the short starter take a cleaning patch and lick it and place it on the jag and push the ball down against the powder cleaning the fouling as you seat the ball. This precludes you sending clinkers down against the communication hole blocking ignition. It is really quick to do. Swabbing as you are seating the ball.  Never a misfire again.

Bob

With a loose fitting large patch run a heavily damp, not to wet, patch down the bore it will ride over the fouling since its "loose" it will bunch and pull the fouling OUT. Repeat with the other side of the same patch. Then a dry patch both sides, load. This will improve accuracy. I shoot tallow for lube and can usually shoot a match 20 odd shots (in Montana), with no issues wetter climates have less bore fouling issues. Neatsfoot oil works pretty well too. But if shooting a rest match I wipe. As a friend says "you don't have to wipe but you have to wipe to win". This if shooting scoring ring or string measure scoring. Its less important when shooting hit or miss targets.
Dan

[Hungry Horse]

IMO, if the crust is right where the patched ball sits on the charge, the problem is with the patch lube, not the “dirty powder”.

  Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

I find after a day's shooting, there is a fouling buildup in the breech area.  Some times, if I've fired off 50 or 60 rounds, I will dump in about 15 or 20gr. of powder (no matter the bore size) then take a water based lube wet patch or spit-wet patch and seat the ball on top of the tiny powder charge.  Pushing this patched ball down through the fouling in the breech simply takes a bit more energy as the wet patch and tight fit pushes ALL of the buildup fouling in the powder charger area down into/onto the small charge.

 Firing off this 'cleaning' charge reduces the amount of fouling needing cleaning.

I also do this with my .69 rifle when shooting loads in paper ctgs. After 10 paper ctgs., they (not lubed at all) get a bit tight loading, so I fire off a cleaning shot, using a wet patched ball and 3 drams of powder - loaded with the rifle's rod.  That's 82gr. 2F & thick patched ball - this cleans the bore enough to shoot another 10 ctgs., which give the same accuracy as cloth patched round balls. 

This sort of 'cleaning' load can be done with any rifle if you are getting fouled - fire off a wet patched ball with a squib load and the rifle is magically 'cleaned' enough to make loading easy again.  If this does not work, you need a thicker patch in your standard load.

Firing off the squib load cleaning shot, will reduce the amount of 'grey' in the cleaning water after getting home and cleaning the rifle's bore and lock.

When I clean my smoothbore after shooting shot - with or without lubed wads - the water is BLACK like the keys on my keyboard.

When I clean my rifle barrels after a day's shooting on the trail with NO wiping nor 'cleaning shots., the water is grey but easy to see to the bottom of the 1 gallon bucket.  If I fire the cleaning shot, the water is barely slightly greyish - & that includes cleaning the lock in it as well.

[John Ciccone]

I use Swiss in my pistols and in my long range percussion lock (90 grains and a 545 grain bullet for that). I also shoot in International events. When we go over seas, the only powder we will get is Swiss. So, it makes sense to practice with it. It is more expensive than Goex, but MUCH cleaner burning. The reason, so it is said, is that Swiss uses charcoal made from the Alder Buckthorn wood. While there are differences between lots, I have not seen any difference in the way it shoots. I recently bought a Yazel pistol and shot it with Swiss on one session, then Goex on another. With Goex the fouling was much greater. I had a similar experience with a new longrifle (a .45 Rice Barrel).

In addition to being cleaner burning, it is more energetic per unit of measure than Goex.

The fellows above questioned how tight your patches are. I strongly suspect they make a very good point.

As for cleaning between shots. With the long range gun I must clean well between each shot or else I'll never be able to get the bullet down the barrel (.450 bore and a .4489 bullet). There I am using
1 1/2 f. But with my underhammer pistol in 36 caliber, I use 11.5 grains of 4f Swiss, and do not need to clean between shots. By contrast, with the .32 caliber Yazel, 15 grains of Goex and I should clean about every 4 or 5 shots.

So, if you can afford the difference in cost (marginal) I would strongly suggest trying Swiss

[OldMtnMan]

   I used to use a lot of Swiss. Have you ever measure the kernel size? I know the Europeans use a different system for measuring the kernel size. I've read Swiss 2F is very close to Goex 3F. Not sure there's that much difference, but there probably is some. That would account for some of the extra power it has. It has to be more than using Alder for charcoal because Wano also uses Alder and its power is about the same as Goex.

[Daryl]

In any stricken measure, 1 1/2F Swiss is very much more dense than 2F GOEX. 
The difference in weight/volume (specific gravity) is very close to 10%. THUS, if
Swiss 1 1/2F gives 15% greater velocity it is roughly 5% more powerful - per weight.
Per volume, 15% - which is VERY important with pre-sighted/regulated antique guns.
The use of Swiss powders can get you shooting to the sights, as they were meant
to shoot, back in the 1800's, whereas it is almost impossible to get any other "make"
of powder to work.

[OldMtnMan]

I've read Swiss 1 1/2F is really 2F with all the 3F kernels sifted out. It didn't have the power of 2F, so they called it 1 1/2F. It should be more consistent though.

[Gary W.E.]

I really need to try the Swiss powder. Although I do have my rifle working better with some of the suggestions on here, it just doesn't seem to like the Goex

[retired fella]

Gary, I didn't see you spittin' and fumin' on Sunday so I think you're getting there.  I'll see you next Tuesday for the "O F" shoot.   

[Gary W.E.]

OK!