Author Topic: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?  (Read 3116 times)

Hemo

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Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« on: February 11, 2018, 07:06:51 PM »
Does anyone have a source for information about Spanish longarm stock design? I'm thinking probably Spanish colonial period, non-military, with  miquelet lock. Google images has a number of pictures of various buttstock styles such as Catalan and Madrid styles, but links don't give much specific information about historical eras, areas of use, etc. Any books or living gurus out there?

Thanks,

Gregg

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2018, 07:53:06 PM »
I saw a Madrid style on display at a fur trade museum in Monterey California some years ago. I’m not sure if it was typical of the esopitas used by the early Caifornos or not.

  Hungry Horse

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2018, 08:39:05 PM »
 Here is the bottom view of a Spanish double flintlock shotgun.  For those of you who wonder about fine checkering in the 18th century, look at this one.
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Treebeard

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 09:07:36 PM »
I was curious also about the Spanish guns. The ones pictured in the Rifle Shoppe catalog and their online site give some examples. Hope to see some sources posted here.

Offline Goo

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 03:55:41 PM »
You will most likely have to go to Spain, Mexico or some other South American country to find examples in museums.     Some of the members on the other ML forums have posted pics and discussed this topic to some length.   The state of Florida Arceological people have dug a few examples out of the ground but those are not available for public view the last time I checked into it.  There was a reproduction miquelete long gun at the fountain of youth in St. Augustine but I think it was a rifle shoppe repro.      Perhaps if you write the conservators at the Victoria and Albert in in London there will be a captured one in their collection?  I have not found any convenient sources of info on this subject in the four years I've been searching.     
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 04:12:16 PM »
Stophel made a couple Catalan stocked guns. unfortunately he doesn't come around anymore......I think some Siren turned him into a TOAD..... :o
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 04:26:22 PM »
Hi Gregg,
There are photos and information about Spanish long guns used in our Rev War in Bill Ahearn's book "Muskets of the Revolution".  Keith Neal published some useful photos in his book "Spanish Guns and Pistols".  J. F. Hayward's books "The Art of the Gunmaker" vols 1 and 2 contain information about regional styles and changes over time.  I cannot think of any really good books with lots of photos at different angles that would serve your purpose.

dave
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Offline Ray Nelson

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 09:28:42 PM »
Jerrywh,

Do you have any more photos of the Spanish Double Barrel flintlock? It would be most interesting to me if more are available.

Thanks.

Ray

Offline Levy

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2018, 11:31:34 PM »
The State of Florida has many Spanish Mission sites and Rancheros some of them have been excavated to some degree.  Spanish gun parts have been recovered which included miquelet and matchlock.  There are 14 Mission sites around Tallahassee, FL.  I worked with the artifacts in the State's Collections for 40 years and saw no whole firearms that were recovered from these Missions.  One the other hand, several firearms have been recovered from shipwrecks that represented whole guns.  There have been escopetas, pistols and a matched pair of a trabuco and pistol.  These were recovered from both 1715 Plate Fleet wrecks and 1733 Plate Fleet wrecks.  I have only seen the Catalan type of stock and no Madrid stocks.  the forearm is very V-shaped or like the sharp end of an egg.  As far as references, I can only add Brinkerhoff and Chamberlain's work on Spanish firearms, Espingarda Perfecta written back in the day and James D. Lavin's work on Spanish firearms from the late 1960's.  James Levy
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Hemo

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2018, 08:27:31 AM »
Thanks, all, for your replies. I just ordered a copy of Lavin's book on Spanish firearms which should arrive soon, and I hope will enlighten me.

Gregg

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2018, 04:06:35 PM »
Enclosed is a image of a Spanish Gun from my collection which may be of some help
Feltwad


Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2018, 05:11:01 PM »
I have started specializing in building the Spanish firearms that you are interested in, particularly Catalan style escopetas. Smart Dog listed some good examples of information, another good book, if you can find it, and it is expensive is Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America, 1700-1821 by Brinkerhoff and Chamberlain as mentioned by Levy. It shows up on Amazon now and again. As far as locks go, TRS and E.J Blackley are the only sources for miquelet locks at this point unless you scratch build. I am currently working on making masters and hope to cast up a run in the next year or so. Actually, miquelet locks are quite simple to make compared to the German/English locks we are all familiar with. Spanish firearms were sometimes also fitted out with French style locks with the distinctive ring for the jaw screw with is the hallmark of Spanish guns. When you use one, you wonder why all flintlocks don't have that ring. Obviates the need for a turn screw to tighten the flint
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Hemo

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2018, 05:55:47 PM »
Thanks, Feltwad, that's a nice piece! I probably will be going with the boot-shaped Catalan buttstock style though.

Deepcreekdale, thanks for your suggestions. I have been contracted by a fellow to build him a Spanish style escopeta who already has most of the parts, including a Miquelet lock from TRS, some hardware castings also from TRS, and an octagon-to-round barrel (.54 rifled which is maybe not quite HC, but hey, he's got it and wants it on the gun). He wants the Catalan style stock style. I have very little knowledge of Spanish firearms, so I'm trying to bring myself up to speed. If the Lavin book doesn't fill my bill, I may expand my library and knowlege base a bit more. I think I still have a few brain cells that can be filled.

Gregg

Offline Robby

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2018, 06:05:04 PM »



Is this the kind of stock you are describing by "Catalan style escopetas"?
Robin
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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2018, 06:23:10 PM »
Yes, that is pretty close, but most of the ones (but not all by any means)I have seen documented were full stock. But that is a great example of a Catalan butt stock, it makes the gun light and easy to handle. Another distinctive feature is that the Spanish generally used barrel bands as on this example and not pins to secure the barrel to the stock. That trigger guard is also distinctive to Catalan style firearms. Interesting forging job, I am still working to perfect mine. I am waiting for some miquelet locks to come from Kevin from Blackley, in the meantime, I have scratch made a few and like I said, I looking into having some cast, most foundries I have contacted require a minimum run of 25 so I need to make sure it will be worth doing. The advantage of miquelet locks and why the Spanish preferred them, especially for frontier/colonial service is there is very little inletting needed for lock internals, making the stock much stronger in the wrist. Actually, miquelet is a modern term, the correct name for that style of lock is llave de rastrillo or pedrenyal. Since I don't speak Spanish, I don't know what those mean.
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Hemo

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2018, 07:29:57 PM »
Deepcreekdale wrote:

"Another distinctive feature is that the Spanish generally used barrel bands as on this example and not pins to secure the barrel to the stock."

I've been going over online images of the barrel bands on these guns, trying to figure out their construction and fixation. Were they made from sheet metal or cast? If sheet metal, were they brazed or soldered somewhere? Were they fixed to the stock with some sort of pin, or just held by friction?

(DCD, I hope I can use you occasionally as a brain-picking reference on this project! I'm glad to see somebody out there has some real-world Spanish building experience!)

Gregg

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2018, 08:00:24 PM »
Another good source of photos is Spanish Guns and Pistols, W. Keith Neal ©1955. Four Catalan and two Madrid buttstocks shown, no overall photos or muzzle.
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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2018, 08:07:40 PM »
Hemo, I would love to help you anyway I can. I have been fabricating my bands out of thick sheet brass or mild steel, silver soldered along the bottom. I am sure the parts available from TRS/Blakely are cast, but the only original I have been able to handle, which was a pistol, was sheet brass and it was held together with a tab folded over into a slot arrangement. It was held on by friction only. It was surprisingly thin gauge as well.
 Feel free to PM me and I will be happy to help you with what little experience from the  projects I have completed. I have lately started doing some work for Seminole War reenactors, they gobble those things up. The are unique looking firearms and attract a lot of attention and sell readily
I need to learn how to post pictures also, so I can share more. I am completely clueless around a computer.
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Spanish longarm stock architecture info?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2018, 08:10:22 PM »
Neal dates these long guns. The two Madrid stocked are circa 1720 and dated 1775; the Catalan circa 1650, those dated were 1806, 1820. and (percussion double) 1846,