Author Topic: Vinegar Stain (Read 5588 times)

n stephenson · « **on:** February 12, 2018, 10:20:17 PM »

I tried a search first , but didn't find anything . I have heard folks on hear talk about vinegar \iron stain. I`ve seen some beautiful rifles posted , that were stained with it.. The most resent being Flinchrocket`s Viginia rifle. Will some who have used it , give me some how to on it . I am wanting to try it. Thanks Nate

flinchrocket · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2018, 10:43:29 PM »

Nate I had an old barn on the farm that I tore down and burned. I walked out their about a month later and picked up a couple hands full of the old rusty nails and put them in a quart jar and filled it about half full of apple cider vinegar. After 6 months or so it had some nice clear solution at the top, the rest of the jar looks pretty nasty though.
I have read about people using steel wool and I believe Rolf used some that was all steel and no oil,but the cheap stuff I tried from Wally World must have had manganese and other metals because it had a blackish blue tint to it. Some old nails or barbed wire before they coated it with galvanize would be good or cut some pieces off an old horse shoe.
I'm surprised nothing came up on a search as there has been a lot written on it here on ALR.

smallpatch · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2018, 12:01:46 AM »

Nate,
I've made some using washing vinegar and steel wool. Takes a week or so, but works quite well.
Never used on Gunstocks, but as a leather stain. I think it's called vinegaroon.

dogcatcher · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2018, 12:10:06 AM »

I have used a hand full of rusted nails, placed in a quart jar and added the vinegar. I have used steel wool, first you have to have wash the steel wool in dish soap to remove the oils used in manufacturing process. Then let it rust before adding the vinegar to it. To speed up the rusting on new metal sprinkle it with salt, after it has started to rust pretty good, I rinsed off the salt and let it continue to rust.

WadePatton · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2018, 12:34:44 AM »

Try searching "iron acetate" I think is the term often used. I've made some, but not used on gun yet. Hasn't made the right colors for me.

Also, don't try to keep it in a mason jar with metal lid. Eventually it'll perforate the lid.

Metalshaper · « **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2018, 12:40:43 AM »

I had just finished cleaning my vertical stand for the Porta band saw in my shop.. I was preparing for a band change and a metal cutting project in steel. This all coincided with my first introduction to the vinegar\iron stain. So I put a magnet in a baggy and set it under the saw

. Collected a nice bit of steel\iron chips as I worked. This went into a jar of vinegar.

Tried it at about 1 month and again at about 4 months,, all I could get was an ugly, dull greyish looking color out of it.. put it on the shelf with other finishes and mixes I have made .. found it about a 15 months later and thought what the heck? Wiped it on and I had a beautiful test piece with a nice nut\brown coloring!! Probably need to go try it again???

the secret might be initial pre rusting mentioned above??or a bit more patience than I can ever manage ?? Some guys have talked about the nitrate ratio as compared to the H+ ions available? I just think getting into the shop and trying it will teach you or me more than a reduction formula calculated in a lab..

Respect Always
Metalshaper\Jonathan

flinchrocket · « **Reply #6 on:** February 13, 2018, 12:54:21 AM »

Quote from: WadePatton on February 13, 2018, 12:34:44 AM

Try searching "iron acetate" I think is the term often used. I've made some, but not used on gun yet. Hasn't made the right colors for me.

Also, don't try to keep it in a mason jar with metal lid. Eventually it'll perforate the lid.

I folded some Saran Wrap a few times and put it on top the jar and tightened the lid so the vinegar Wouldn't evaporate off.
Metalshaper the gray will turn brown when you put oil on it. Usually the first few coats will be gray, then it will start getting darker.

little joe · « **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2018, 12:59:22 AM »

I,v have made 3 batches with steel wool 1st batch was good 2nd no good and 3 is cooking now. 3rd is looking pretty good and will try it about April.

little joe · « **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2018, 01:04:17 AM »

Let me comment on Jerry,s rifle I,v knew him for 30-35 years now and my skill level hasn,t got any better however God only knows how good he will be. Super job.

Clark Badgett · « **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2018, 01:25:20 AM »

I've made batches from steel wool (washed), cast iron turnings, and steel turnings. The Steel wool and cast iron looked the same on my test scraps, the steel not so much. I really liked to color it gave on leather too, a very dark gray/blue/black. Quite visually striking.

flinchrocket · « **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2018, 01:26:36 AM »

Thanks Larry, I am no spring chicken either you know! Have you got some wrought iron laying around their, if so put a couple chunks in your jar.

flinchrocket · « **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2018, 01:31:21 AM »

Clark I believe that blue is from manganese.

EC121 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2018, 02:11:18 AM »

The size 0000 steel normally doesn't have oil on it, and it is finer. Will the vinegar mix blush like aquafortis?

flinchrocket · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2018, 02:24:45 AM »

Long John ( John Cholin ) knows the chemical process. You don't have to heat V/I the vinegar will evaporate on its own.you can put vinegar and iron in search box at the top of the page and find a lot of info on it.

T*O*F · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2018, 02:31:21 AM »

I happened to catch an episode of that PBS series that Mike Brooks was on. This one was about a furniture maker. He had a recipe for ebonizing wood.

Dissolve steel wool in white vinegar.
Paint tannic acid on the wood with a paintbrush and let it dry.
Then paint on the vinegar solution and let it dry.
Slowly pass the wood over a bowl of ammonia until it turns black.

Probably with walnut you wouldn't need the tannic acid.
He didn't mention if it could be rubbed back or not.

flinchrocket · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2018, 02:43:18 AM »

Dave I had a scrap piece of walnut and I put some V/I on it and it turned black instantly. Took a lot of sanding to get it off, but I was just playing around with it to see how it would do.

Clark Badgett · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2018, 03:49:32 AM »

Quote from: flinchrocket on February 13, 2018, 01:31:21 AM

Clark I believe that blue is from manganese.

Could very well have been. I think my wife threw away my sample pieces I had sitting in the window testing the UV fastness of it all. The Steel turnings made an ugly grey/brown on leather, the cast iron and steel wool vinegaroon brews looked better. I think it was the steel wool that had the bluish hue to it. Both the steel wool and iron brews looked very good on maple, and turned walnut flat black.

Pennsylvania Dutchman · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2018, 03:50:00 AM »

I made up some vinegar iron stain back in the summer. I used cleaning vinegar and clean dry cuttings from 1018-1026 steel from my band cutoff saw. Here are a couple of photos of a test piece.

upload photo to website

Thanks, Mark

Long John · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2018, 05:34:17 AM »

Nate,

All my guns are stained with vinegaroon, aka vinegar/iron stain. The best results I have gotten are from using cider vinegar and mild carbon steel or pure iron. I do NOT recommend using steel wool. Steel wool is mad from recycled automobiles and is by no means pure. there are a number of alloying elements in alloy steel that will frustrate your efforts to get a nice reddish-brown. Manganese adds a black color, nickel adds a blue-green color, as does chromium and copper. and all of these impurities are in the "steel" of steel wool. Try to get old iron nails or old rusty barbed wire. (There is plenty of that around my place in Benton!) fill up a large crock with cider vinegar drop in a fist-full of nails put a plastic bag over the top with some string to keep it tight and go do something else for a couple of months. Vinegar is a weak acid and it does not work as fast as nitric acid. It will take time and don't expect to see a lot of bubbling or fuming because it won't. My crock of vinegaroon has been on the shelf for over 20 years. I just add vinegar every so often so it stays liquid.

After letting it do its thing for a couple of months you will have a solution of iron acetate with some rust and iron nails in the bottom of the crock. Pour off a little of the clear solution. That is your stain. When you apply the stain the wood will look wet but the color comes in as the wood dries. No heating necessary, but usually I use several coats because the stain does not have as many iron ions per teaspoon of liquid as nitric acid stains do. I get colors that are very much like what Penn Dutchman has shown. If you rub the wood down with burlap the contrast between the dark and light stripes will increase. The color will become more intense when you add your finish.

You can nudge the color of vinegar/iron stain some. If you want more red follow the stain with some hydrogen peroxide (not period-correct!) This will shift the iron oxide more to ferric oxide (Fe₂O₃ reddish brown) rather than ferrosoferric oxide (Fe₃O₄ black). The faster you dry the wood the more red it will become. Leaving the stock without finish a long time will tend to blacken the stain. The red and black iron oxides are in equilibrium in the wood. Usually the result is a nice warm slightly red-o4range brown.

Every old farm had apple trees and used vinegar to pickle meat, eggs, vegetables, etc. I just don't believe that colonial gunsmiths on the frontier would spend good hard money to buy nitric acid that was shipped across the Atlantic from England, at considerable expense, when vinegaroon was essentially free and had been in use as a stain since the middle ages.

I have been using it exclusively for over 20 years. I like it.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

thecapgunkid · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2018, 03:37:46 PM »

smallpatch...Nate,
I've made some using washing vinegar and steel wool. Takes a week or so, but works quite well.
Never used on Gunstocks, but as a leather stain. I think it's called vinegaroon.

Yup. It's the only black dye I use when making shoes. On cowhide, which is so much more porous than wood, it'll penetrate and even out no matter what you do.

The longer you let it sit, the deeper the stain. Finer steel wool works best for shorter duration but any iron will do if you are willing to wait.

The key is, rather than type of metal, to use a completely clean jar or crock.

I suspect that, if you use it on a stock, the thing to do is apply it on the last round of whiskering and then again when done. After my scrap try , that's what I will now try on the current project because of this post.

Thanks

Capgun
AKA The Still River Cordwainer

Feltwad · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2018, 03:54:42 PM »

If on a new stock I have for the past 69 years used vinegar to raise the grain till no more rises this does stain the wood which I then fill the grain with a mixture of fullers and linseed in paste form , when dry I always finish with a oil finish , this type of oil finish takes many months to accomplish
Feltwad

moleeyes36 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2018, 06:00:36 PM »

I've had some stocks stained with commercial nitric acid/iron stains continue to darken considerably over time if not neutralized with ammonia or baking soda. Is this ever a problem with vinegar/iron stains?

Mole Eyes

WadePatton · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2018, 08:14:12 PM »

Quote from: moleeyes36 on February 13, 2018, 06:00:36 PM

I've had some stocks stained with commercial nitric acid/iron stains continue to darken considerably over time if not neutralized with ammonia or baking soda. Is this ever a problem with vinegar/iron stains?

Mole Eyes

One of our chemistry experts spoke to this concern some time ago, and I recall that there are two things going on here. What I recall from that discussion (iron acetate)

Number one: Any solution that is yet acidic may continue to "work". But that if one "fills" the solution with metal until it'll take no more, then it is "neutral" enough. I hear this is done with commercially-made solutions because they are often "hot" with activity (potential). Take away: don't use any solution until it quits dissolving metal.

Two: That iron acetate made with 5% vinegar (something about "vapor pressure") doesn't require any neutralization. That basically it settles down on its own, no extra processing required for stability.

I could be wrong, but that's how I's recall it.

Greg Pennell · « **Reply #23 on:** February 14, 2018, 08:00:50 AM »

Inspired by some of the nice colors (both wood and leather), I started me a batch last week. Picked up a few feet of old rusty barbed wire (part of our boundary fence dating to before my grandfather bought this property in the 1930’s)...a good handful of pieces in a quart of apple cider vinegar, seems to be brewing nicely. Looking forward to trying this out!

Greg

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Author Topic: Vinegar Stain (Read 5588 times)

n stephenson