Author Topic: German straight rifled smooth rifle (Read 5851 times)

rich pierce · « **on:** February 14, 2018, 11:50:26 PM »

I picked this up a number of years ago to use as a study piece. It appears to me to be a 1760-1780, iron mounted smooth rifle from Bonn, Germany. The signature is approximately Marderxxa Bonn. It is about 20 ga with shallow straight rifling. I am not sure it was always a halfstock. The current rib had a lousy solder job and is completely loose. It appears to have been converted to percussion in the American style so may have been here a while. The iron furniture is a very attractive suite with the guard, buttplate extension, and sideplate all exhibiting similar styling and finials. Overall, seems a middling quality gun probably designed for boar hunting.

rich pierce · « **Reply #1 on:** February 15, 2018, 12:34:04 AM »

Couple things I noted. The buttstock is narrower than I expected for an 18th century German gun. Overall very flowy. Nothing angular anywhere. Carving is very low but nicely executed.

DaveM · « **Reply #2 on:** February 15, 2018, 01:58:53 AM »

I like that gun alot. Looks like an American conversion? I do think many collectors and researchers put way too much emphasis on butt width as a measure if age. This width likely varied by maker and client preference and region.

vanu · « **Reply #3 on:** February 15, 2018, 03:52:41 AM »

Rich,
Very handsome trigger guard, overall a very cool piece...
Bruce

Majorjoel · « **Reply #4 on:** February 15, 2018, 11:27:13 AM »

Rich, very curious to know about the under rib, as many of these Germanic halfstocks were made without a rib. They used vertical extended ramrod pipes and there was an open gap between the r\rod & barrel. A look that to my eye was kind of homely, being used to seeing under ribs that filled these gaps.

With the under rib on your barrel being loose, is there any way you can determine any signs of your gun ever being a full stock that had been shortened? Also curious about the barrel length on your piece. I am just starting a new build that just about mimics your fine original example! Using an oct. to round 42" tapered and flared 24 gage barrel, half stocked European walnut.

I have been trying to come up with a plan for an under rib on the round end of this barrel.

Thank you Rich for showing us pictures of your very nice original smooth rifle!

Excelsior1929 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 15, 2018, 03:38:22 PM »

Hello all

They have a very nice rifle.
I think that it used to be a flintlock and was then rebuilt to percussion in the US.
The manufacturer will be "Johannes Marder from Bonn".
The signature on the barrel is "" Marder a Bonn "" "where the " a " stands for " from".

Here are a few links with information about Johannes Marder:

https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/ein_paar_doppellaeufige_steinschlosspistolen_johannes_marder_in_bonn_um_1780/l/114733?aid=117&lstatus=0&Accid=1552&currentpos=35

https://books.google.de/books?id=zXUAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=b%C3%BCchsenmacher+marder+a+bonn&source=bl&ots=cxVT06rxMc&sig=K8ZuQUk-3bHK-UFHG4RA2fXIgao&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_7YGl9KfZAhWPjqQKHalpB94Q6AEINDAC#v=onepage&q=b%C3%BCchsenmacher%20marder%20a%20bonn&f=false

https://books.google.de/books?id=emZKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA618&lpg=PA618&dq=b%C3%BCchsenmacher+marder+a+bonn&source=bl&ots=l-S_rIp8K4&sig=hMPRh1JntrOr4_bx7QRkllZMpHI&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_7YGl9KfZAhWPjqQKHalpB94Q6AEIPDAG#v=onepage&q=b%C3%BCchsenmacher%20marder%20a%20bonn&f=false

http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/auktion/hhm53.pl?db=kat53_s.txt&f=ZAEHLER&c=44&t=temartic_S_D&co=7

https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/windbuechse_johann_marder_bonn_um_1760_-_1780/l/87629?aid=94&lstatus=0&Accid=1195&currentpos=1

Now you have some information :-)
I hope I could help a bit.

MfG Arno

rich pierce · « **Reply #6 on:** February 15, 2018, 04:05:30 PM »

Fantastic! Thanks so much, Arno!

Major Joel, I too wonder if the rib is an American addition and whether this was originally fullstock or halfstock with the thimbles soldered to the barrel.

n stephenson · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2018, 04:28:00 PM »

I like the whole piece , but I really like the furniture!! The knot in the top of the cheekpiece I like. Thanks for posting. Nate

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #8 on:** February 15, 2018, 05:45:41 PM »

Rich,

This is a very attractive piece. How long is the barrel?

By the looks of it, I Think it was full -stocked at one time, and likely made into half stock when converted.
I see a screw where the sling button or sling swivel may have been fitted behind the t/guard. Is there any evidence of a sling near the foreend tip?
Most Germanic half-stocks has such a sling, plus two close positioned pipes, (Entry and one just ahead of it), plus a horn end -cap.
If yours has no sign of these, I think it will be for sure a cut -down stock.
If the rib is loose and will come off easily, there may well be signs of barrel lugs and sling lug hiding under it.
I too have one with a shallower than what we think usual buttstock, (Top to bottom) but it still fits well in Geo. Shumway's list of measured examples.

It's a lovely piece!
Have you any ideas on the wrist escutcheon? Is that a Ducal coronet?

Congrats on it Rich!!

P-B.

Seth Isaacson · « **Reply #9 on:** February 15, 2018, 07:34:30 PM »

I like the subtlety of the carving. Should it still be called a smooth rifle if it has straight grooves? Not really smoothbore anymore. I definitely agree that it was likely a full stock originally.

rich pierce · « **Reply #10 on:** February 15, 2018, 07:44:29 PM »

Good point! Now I can say I have a rifle! But, a rifle with no rear sight. I guess that is why I favored calling it s smooth rifle. Maybe “corrugated” rifle?

I’m interested in whether the round toe is a regional thing or indicative of this particular type of gun.

Seth Isaacson · « **Reply #11 on:** February 15, 2018, 10:57:12 PM »

Complicating terminology is the fact that "straight rifling" like "smooth rifle" is by its very nature an oxymoron. Rifling by definition consists of spiraled grooves.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #12 on:** February 15, 2018, 11:13:04 PM »

Rich,

More smooth-bores have the rounded underside of the stock than rifled arms, but rifled arms from certain areas have this trait.

From the area around Suhl, and on up to North central Germany tend to have rounded undersides to the buttstock.
The somewhat displaced wrist is also seen in these areas. To me it looks Suhl or Zella, but I have no idea where Bonn is!

I guess my neck is on the line if Bonn is Miles away. LOL!

AsMs · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2018, 11:48:44 PM »

I Google Earth Bonn and Suhl. They are not near each other.

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2018, 11:57:15 PM »

Rich,

Thanks for sharing a piece full of history. I like the details and consistency of the artists. Like Pukka I am interested in the wrist escutcheon, any ideas? Is it a crest?

Regards,

Bob

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #15 on:** February 16, 2018, 06:38:08 AM »

Quote from: AsMs on February 15, 2018, 11:48:44 PM

I Google Earth Bonn and Suhl. They are not near each other.

Quite right AsMs.
I looked it up and Bonn is about 230 miles west of Suhl. It Still looks more like Suhl than anywhere else to me though. :-)

Rich,

Can you tell me what is at the sides of the shield with the three shells?...can't make it out.

Three shells sometimes a sign of pilgrimage.

After a bit of looking, it appears the Coronet is that of a Graf, or Count.

Excelsior1929 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 16, 2018, 10:53:33 AM »

Hello

Since the good Mr Marder has called himself as a "Hofbüchsenmacher" or later as an Electoral Gunsmith I've done a little research in this direction.
The coronet of the Electors of Trier at the time also include the 3 shells.
They will probably come from the then Elector.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurtrier

The coat of arms is certainly quite clear.
It belongs to the family "von Metternich"

http://www.welt-der-wappen.de/Heraldik/metternich.htm

The rifle was probably made for the soldiers of "von Metternich".

I hope I could help a bit :-)
Arno

OldSouthRelics · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2018, 02:51:01 PM »

Quote from: Excelsior1929 on February 16, 2018, 10:53:33 AM

Hello

Since the good Mr Marder has called himself as a "Hofbüchsenmacher" or later as an Electoral Gunsmith I've done a little research in this direction.
The coronet of the Electors of Trier at the time also include the 3 shells.
They will probably come from the then Elector.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurtrier

The coat of arms is certainly quite clear.
It belongs to the family "von Metternich"

http://www.welt-der-wappen.de/Heraldik/metternich.htm

The rifle was probably made for the soldiers of "von Metternich".

I hope I could help a bit :-)
Arno

Arno,

Excellent research. Thank you for offering your unique perspective and knowledge. Looking at the pictures and the escutcheon, I would agree with you. It was probably, at the very least, commissioned for someone in or associated with the Von Metternich family.

rich pierce · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2018, 04:52:34 PM »

Thanks so much. It’s very rare to be able to learn so much about an original.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #19 on:** February 16, 2018, 05:20:30 PM »

Arno,

I see you are a newer member here, Welcome!!

Thank you for the information.
Although not belonging to me, it is Very interesting to learn for whom it was made.

One question if I may;
You mention made for Soldiers of Von Matternich.

Do you not think this a sporting gun?
I know many rifles and guns were made for nobility, and they often had sets made so that they could be loaned to guests on shooting days.
By what I have seen, I would say this was a sporting gun. Now, I may be wrong. (I find it easy at times!)

Yes, Nobility often had stands of arms as well, but still see this as a sporting gun. What do you think?

Excelsior1929 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 16, 2018, 07:16:31 PM »

Ahoi

I'm not so familiar with old weapons and their ornaments, flourishes and designs as many others in this forum and I do not want to disappoint anyone here.
But the weapon shown above is far too simple for a count.

Just because his coat of arms is on it - it's not his weapon.

Here is an example of a simple but well-made soldier weapon from the time.
http://www.waffensammler-kuratorium.de/Pistole%20Sachsen-Eisenach/Pistole%20Saeisenachti.html
http://www.waffensammler-kuratorium.de/Pistole%20Sachsen-Eisenach/Pistole%20Saeisenachda.html
http://www.waffensammler-kuratorium.de/Pistole%20Sachsen-Eisenach/Pistole%20Saeisenachst.html

rich pierce · « **Reply #21 on:** February 16, 2018, 07:25:51 PM »

It’s a plain sporting gun suitable for a gamekeeper. Far too light for military use and no provision for s bayonet. It weighs around 7 pounds, maybe 7.5.

Excelsior1929 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 16, 2018, 07:49:01 PM »

For what purpose the good piece was once thought I do not know.
That it is a gamekeeper rifle is well possible.
In any case, it belonged in the widest sense to the troops of "von Metternich"

rich pierce · « **Reply #23 on:** February 17, 2018, 05:12:43 AM »

On closer inspection with the rib off, there was evidence of 2 dovetails on the underside of the barrel. Supports it was originally a fullstock.

Pukka Bundook · « **Reply #24 on:** February 17, 2018, 06:08:59 PM »

Rich,

It is plain, yes, but beautiful crafted furniture. Just look at that trigger-guard.
I agree, not for a Count's personal use maybe, but Very well made and suitable for his guests to use. I do not see it as a game-keepers gun.
This one makes me think of the Severely plain guns from the Brandnburg area. Very high quality, but Very restrained. More so than this piece.

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Author Topic: German straight rifled smooth rifle (Read 5851 times)

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