Old lock

[Maineshops]

I’m using an old lock for a build . It has no halfcock. It’s not a quality lock and I don’t think the hammer is original. Question is why don’t it have a halfcock and should I put one in. I would be uncomfortable with the hammer resting on the cap. Dan

[45-110]

i see a hump on the tumbler where a 1/2 cock notch may have been at one time. i have seen many tumblers over the years that had the 1/2 notch removed after the notch became damaged or chipped.
kw

[Hungry Horse]

In my experience a lot of common grade rifles during the percussion era had no half cock notch, and fewer yet had a fly, if they did have a half cock notch. The most commonly encountered set trigger are of the double set/single phase variety that are rarely used in modern builds today.

  Hungry Horse

[Maineshops]

Under magnification I see no evidence of it having that first notch. It seems to have a smooth arc in that area with no indent where a halfcock would have been. I have it apart and I’ll ck again.
Upon disassembly I notices that there is nothing to keep the hammer spring snug to the plate. It has a pin that goes in the plate. There is a protrusion on the plate that the upper leaf rests on. I wonder if that should have a negative rake on it to ramp the spring in?

[Mike Brooks]

I have several old locks laying around here with out 1/2 cock notches. I have no idea how exactly they used them to keep safe. Maybe it wasn't an issue back then. They worried a lot less about safety back then.

[deepcreekdale]

I read once in a book on the Oregon Trail, that one of the most common causes of death was accidental discharge of firearms when being pulled out of wagons. That might make sense if many of the locks were like this. Personally, I would keep this for display and use something safer for any  build. To much risk of accidental discharge for me.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I can understand your attachment to that lock, and why you would like to employ it in a new rifle.  But I think like others here, that it should be given a rest, used as a conversation piece, and a new lock used for your rifle.  That lock looks seriously compromised by oxidation pits, particularly in the mainspring.  When it goes, you'll be in a pickle trying to find or make a replacement. And without a half cock notch, you'll be alone on the firing line, for obvious safety infractions.  And just an observation about the lock...that lock bolt hole looks to be about 1/4" minimum...weld it up and further detract from its original nature?  There are two holes in the arm of the tumbler for the stirrup pivot?

[wormey]

It was most likely used in a rifle with set triggers.  The sear would catch on the half cock notch since it did not have a fly in the tumbler.  Many mountain rifles made that way.  Wormey

[mountainman70]

Few years back I built a nice halfstock rifle based on an original WV gun,and used an antique  Manton marked percussion lock with no halfcock notch. Went to a lot of effort to make the gun correct.
After shooting it in, I decided to refit it with a proper modern lock with halfcock and fly.
Sold it to a friend out west.
Point is,for me, why put all the work into a build and have a less than safe and reliable lock  being a sore spot?

I like the look of the old locks,too, just my 2 cents worth. Be safe, Dave 

[Maineshops]

Thanks for the input and safety is my concern so I’ll scrub the old lock. Im building three at the same time and using this one to develop my questionable skills. Age has taken its toll but still having fun. I’ll move on to the butplate next and see how that goes.  Dan

[Bob Roller]

A half cock or "first position"on a caplock when used during the loading
process will allow air compression on the tighter loads used today to push
the powder up and under the nipple.It is NOT a safety as we think of the
term today. It should only have to withstand the thrust/torque of the
mainspring. None of them will stand a hard pull on the trigger or the
hammering of a set trigger.The old saying "Went off half cocked"
originated with a mishandled gun lock.

Bob Roller

[Maineshops]

Bob.....my understanding is that you leave the old cap on while reloading to maintain a positive pressure in the barrel? I guess I’m not understanding why we need air compression? Understand you are talking to a complete novice on this. Dan

[Bob Roller]

Usually,in my experience the cap is blown to shreds and has no further use.
Air is compressed when a patched ball or an elongated bullet is pushed down
to the powder.This air can't easily escape and will be compressed and powder
being light and dry will be pushed to the base of the nipple.
I have a vague memory of reading about an abrupt ramming of a ball and it
creating a diesel effect and firing the gun.Has anyone ever read this or heard
about it?? Possible?

Bob Roller

[T*O*F]

Thanks for the input and safety is my concern so I’ll scrub the old lock.

Did you not read my reply in your other post?  This whole safety issue is BS and many of the respondents haven't got a clue as to why locks are made this way.  Those locks have their place when used as originally intended without applying modern thinking to the process.

[Daryl]

Here is some modern thinking - that lock would be quite unsafe for a hunting rifle, but perfectly safe on the firing line at a shoot.  Most, at least our shoots do not allow you to prime or cap until you are on the firing line. This lock would have to be at full cock to be 'primed' as as suck, would already be on the firing line with gun pointed "down range". No problem. I know lots of guys who HAVE to cap their locks at full bent as there is not enough room to do this at 1/2 cock. 

On the other hand, I would not hunt with a person with a cap or flintlock that did not have a 1/2 cock, safety notch.  However, I am sure I could hunt alone with a lock such as this, and quite safely at that.

I do agree this lock should be a paper weight only and not used.

[Marcruger]

"I do agree this lock should be a paper weight only and not used."

But a cool looking paper weight, right Daryl?"   :-)   

[Daryl]

Absolutely so!

[Don Stith]

In no way shape or form is a half cock notch in a side lock tumbler a safety.  I suspect the design of a safety position on a break action shotgun has given that false impression to some.  Many guns are fired with resulting broken sear nose when set triggers are activated with hammer ( or cock) in half cock position
Bob
Back in my boy scout days there was a compression based fire starter that some used in lieu of flint and steel at jamborees. I would not recommend pushing a ball down a barrel without the nipple  vented
 That ought to get some arguments going

[Pukka Bundook]

Now some of you gents have me puzzling; 

If the half bent position on  a normal lock is Not a safety position , what Is it?  .....It can not be fired in this position unless an undue amount of pressure is used , and yes, something has to break for it to do so.
Bob, I understand what you are saying about air pressure, but the very same guts are to be seen in the flint lock, so I do not see the half -cock as being any different to those in the latter.
In the sporting world, are we seeing suggestions here that we carry a percussion arm in the field with the hammers sitting on the caps?...or always at full cock???
I have managed to get to well past 60 and never heard before that the half cock position was not a safe carry position.
  Also , I have carried this type of lock on the half bent for at least 48 of those years with no troubles.
The Only locks I have seen that are percussion and have no half cock, were Very late types, with a lock that would rebound back to a half -cock but the lock in the OP is not one of those.
It appears some lower grade export locks may have been made with no half bent, but  up to now I was ignorant of them.

Still puzzled over this.
Richard.

Just had a thought;
Yes, it hurt!........Bolted locks are an extra safety but Many pistols, both flint and percussion have no bolt but were carried at Half Cock.  Who's going to volunteer to carry a loaded pistol in their pocket for a week, doing regular work, either with the hammer on the cap, Or full cocked???

[Maineshops]

Certainly a lively debate to inform a rank novice like myself. Never ceases to amaze me how much I learn from this group. Many thanks. Dan.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Bob is correct regarding the spent percussion cap being removed from the nipple prior to loading.  In a well designed lock, the cap is blown to bits, and may only retain a small portion of itself after ignition, between the hammer and the nipple.  The cut in the nose of the hammer allows gases to split the cap, and it usually falls away when the lock is brought to half bent to load.  An accumulation of fouling in the hammer cup will eventually prevent this phenomenon.  But after firing a percussion rifle, the hammer should be brought to half cock, or I guess full cock in this case, the cap removed if it is still there, and then powder and patched ball into the bore.  Bob is also correct that the powder in the above scenario will be forced down against the breech's various faces including right out to the pan of a flint rifle, or to the nipple in a percussion, as air passes out through the vent.  The rifle is then primed and is ready for the next shot.
Although one should never trust their lives or the lives of those around us to the half cock notch of a lock, many of us hunt with a gun primed and on half cock, always keeping in mind our muzzle direction.  At an event where two or more folks are shooting, priming is not allowed until the shooter is at the shooting position and the gun is pointed in a safe direction.  As is modern humankind's nature to identify all things, we now call the half cocked position of a lock, the safety position.  It is not fool proof in that a fool can make a muzzleloader go off from this position.  Most of us are vigilant when in the company of other shooters.

[Pukka Bundook]

Taylor,

I agree with what you say in the above, that in hunting we normally load and prime and carry the gun at half bent.  This was the safety position, but as we both know;
 "Never, never let your gun, pointed be at anyone" etc. etc.

Half cock was the only "safe'  there was, apart from seeing to it that we pointed in a safe direction, for man and beast. (and dog) :-)

For what it is worth, I Have seen old pistols that appear to have been 'fired' with a great rush of adrenalin in the system, with  the half bent, scear nose, And the trigger broken.   (I had one like this to mend....maybe kids playing Cowboys 'N' Injuns" I do not know, but a child would have a  hard time breaking all three. 

[Bob Roller]

Half cocked while hunting with a flintlock is the only practical way to carry
the gun.What little hinting I have done with a muzzle loader was with a
caplock carried with the hammer down on the cap. No problems or even close
calls.The gun wan an Enfield short rifle with a sling.The last deer hunt I was
involved was in 1965 and I used a Model 95 and an 1886 Winchester with
chambered round and hammer at quarter cock with very deep trigger engagement.
Bob Roller

[Pukka Bundook]

 Bob,

It appears that though the guns were the same both sides of the pond, we were "brung up" different, and  I would have been sent home if I ever  had the hammer sitting on the cap out in the field.  Slip, drop the gun and off she goes....

Very best of everything Bob,

Richard.

[Daryl]

Usually,in my experience the cap is blown to shreds and has no further use.
Air is compressed when a patched ball or an elongated bullet is pushed down
to the powder.This air can't easily escape and will be compressed and powder
being light and dry will be pushed to the base of the nipple.
I have a vague memory of reading about an abrupt ramming of a ball and it
creating a diesel effect and firing the gun.Has anyone ever read this or heard
about it?? Possible?

Bob Roller

With a squib load (3 drams) in my .69 cal. rifle, the cap is barely flared & is an effectively seal. This is due to what I call, a proper nipple in good shape, as with the hunting load of 6 drams, the cap is obliterated by escaping gas at the nipple, yet the hammer remains sitting on the nipple.

When loading the rifle after being discharged with the light, 3-dram squib load, the hammer must be raised to 1/2 bent to allow the compressing air beneath the patched ball to escape out the nipple, otherwise it is impossible to seat the ball on the powder and have it stay there. The patched ball's trapped and compressed air will fully rush the ball 1/2 way back up the barrel when you let go of the rod.

If the flash channel in the nipple is large enough (worn out nipple ) to cause the cap to disintegrate with such a light 3 drams charge, the full hunting charge will set the hammer to 1/2 cock, which is not correct & hard on the lock, I suspect.  Thus, the way the gun is set up now, with the little bunny load not breaking up the cap, but the gun working perfectly with a normal hunting load and we are in perfect harmony with the gun and thus, safe.

I merely have to remember to draw the hammer to 1/2 bent before loading, when shooting bunnies , or on the trail.