Help/Advise on a Double Rifle Repro

[1sogdusm]

I know this is a little far afield for ALR but I know there is a vast amount of experience here.  I picked up an old Trail Guns Armory Kodiak Double .50 Rifle.  After a good cleaning and getting to know it a bit I want to make a few changes.  I believe all the older Kodiaks like this one were 1:48. With 28” barrels.  The newer rifles lost a pound by shortening the barrels to 24”. My question, if i have the barrels shortened how much if any would accuracy suffer?  I believe the new rifles had a change in twist rate.  I stand to drop a pound by cutting the barrels back and have already removed the giant lead slug from the stock. I plan to carry this rifle a bit and from the factory it is way too heavy. I believe with a little weight reduction and a better set of sights this just might be a useable rifle.

[Daryl]

I would leave the barrels and just remove the lead (1 pound) from the stock. That will leave you with a barrel heavy gun which will shoot better offhand. I had one in .58 - removed the lead, dropped the hammers a bit further to make the fences actually work, removed that ugly band-sad cheek piece and re-finished it.
The only way to see what changes will happen when reducing the barrel length, is to do it. In all likelihood, the barrels will cross badly.  Now with crossing, you have to increase the powder charge to uncross them. You may or may not be able to increase it safely enough to uncross the tubes.
Sry I cannot be of more help.
My barrels crossed at 50 yards by 2 1/2", but also shot the left barrel above the right by another 2 1/2".  That was with 82gr. (3drms) of 2f and a patched .562" ball and .0215" ticking patch.
By increasing the charge to 90gr., the barrels shot closer together. I was on the right track.

By increasing the charge to 100gr. both barrels then shot together into a single group.  As they were not shooting parallel, they were actually still converging slightly, and thus would continue at greater range, ie: cross at 100yards by about the width of the barrel axis, ie: 1 1/2". I could live with that for plinking- and did. Taylor can attest to this rifles shooting - indeed, I got crapped on for selling it - it rarely missed any targets on our trial walk.  Oft times, I would fire a fast right/left with the resulting pow/clang/pow/clang.  That would make a super smaller big game hunting rifle.

I further increased the charge to 110gr. 2F and now the barrels shot parallel and due to shooting parallel, would continue to do that at ALL ranges - making it about perfect, but I wanted more powder.  Further increasing the charge to 120gr. of powder, made the barrels cross again and reverse, not the left shooting higher than the right and same 2 1/2' high and between, at 50yards.

I've typed all this out just to show that double barrel rifles can be VERY frustrating. I was lucky with my .58 - not very many people are this lucky.  The fellow from whom I purchased this rifle, was using slugs - they shot about a foot apart at 50yards.

The top 2 pictures are the before, bottom 3 are after pictures.









There are 2 lefts and 2 rights in the group(4 in one hole, 2 out a tich- 1 left, 1 right. + the flier/flinch lower left hole.

[Bill Paton]

1sog...,
Can’t help with barrel question, but my old Kodiak .58 was poorly regulated (worse than Darys”s) and with one set of sights it shot slugs to widely different points of impact. I solved that by making a tang peep sight that flipped from one side to the other, and installed two front sights, one for each barrel. With that arrangement, the rifle has taken moose and muskox.

Although I have never tried to pull the breech plugs on mine, I have heard the rifles criticized for having non-removable breech plugs.

Bill Paton

[Daryl]

1sog...,
Can’t help with barrel question, but my old Kodiak .58 was poorly regulated (worse than Darys”s) and with one set of sights it shot slugs to widely different points of impact. I solved that by making a tang peep sight that flipped from one side to the other, and installed two front sights, one for each barrel. With that arrangement, the rifle has taken moose and muskox.

Although I have never tried to pull the breech plugs on mine, I have heard the rifles criticized for having non-removable breech plugs.

Bill Paton

Forgot to add, I was able to remove one of the sights. As well, I filed out the sight to a wide "V".

I did not know that. Interesting and some -what scary. To be non-removable, they'd likely be welded in.

[1sogdusm]

Well,, maybe I will do a little shooting and load work up. If it is a train wreck and wont shoot well then I will chop the barrels and use it as a play gun.  If I can work up a load and it works then I guess I should leave it alone. Stock plug is out and that helped but being less barrel heavy would be a welcome change also. Thanks for the help, I have RB and some old conical that i use with an underhammer. We will see where it goes and I will update.  Cheers

[Hungry Horse]

This is just my opinion, so don’t take it personally. The more loaded barrels a gun has, the more dangerous it is. The shorter the barrel/barrels are the more dangerous it is. Any time a muzzleloader with more than one barrel is fired there is a chance the charge in the other barrel will move, so always check it. Not every state allows multibarreled weapons under their hunting regulation. These are just a few things to think about.
 I have repaired four guns built on this pattern, three double rifles, and one upland double 12guage. They were all split  between the locks, so pull the locks, and examine this area after every outing, and never shoot the gun without replacing the ramrod.
 Oh, the 50 caliber longer barreled 1in48” twist versions are the best of this breed IMO, they are only regulated( if at all) to a hundred yards, and the fast twist works fine at that range. Enjoy it, but be safe.

  Hungry Horse

[1sogdusm]

Thanks Hungry Horse, I asked because I have no experience with a double rifle and no offense is taken from sound advice.  I hope to have an opportunity today to do a little shooting here at home and see what the old pig can do. I have hope I can find a good load that is not heavy.  I don’t have any giants to kill and 70 yards is about my max range here at home.

[Hungry Horse]

Out here on the left coast, where wild pigs are becoming as common as blackbirds, any muzzleloader with a backup shot would be a good thing. Of course it would have to be loaded with a non-lead projectile, to please all the people that think we could sterilize them, or negotiate with them, to get them to stop ravaging the landscape.

  Hungry Horse

[1sogdusm]

Well I made it out today and found some .495 round ball.  I got home after 5 and started shooting.  I used Triple-7 at 80grains and the patched .495 round ball as a starting load on the right barrel.  All shooting was done at 55 yards.  I can’t say this is a great group but it was done around dusk from a standing position with my arm braced against a tree.  I finished it off with a right and left shot on the 6 inch gong.  Probably all I can expect for now without some more load work. Thanks to all and extra thanks to Daryl for walking me in a few inches. Again, I think I have one to work on but it will do it’s job if needed in the mean time.

Thanks again, Jim

[Hungry Horse]

Fertilize your lawn with the triple seven, and get yourself some black powder. The phony black powder is full of perchlorate that eats up your barrel. I personally would use 2F, a .490 ball, and greased linen patch.

  Hungry Horse

[1sogdusm]

Truth be told I was given the triple seven and didn’t want to waste it. It is about gone.  I have only used BP in my guns for years.  Only wish I had a source for a better BP in my area. Goex seems to be the only in store option. The triple 7 seems to run a little hotter so I suspect it will only require a slight increase to duplicate with 2F. Funny thing is I have been given numerous  cans of BP and Fake stuff over the years.  I have never had any substitute last long enough to shoot it, cakes up hard and gets tossed. I still have usable BP that is in an oval shaped can!!! I did try a .490 round ball and it was not a tight enough load to give any consitancy. The .495 walked the right barrel in several inches and made it look like both barrels could get close enough to give kill shots with one rear sight. I would like to see it better but I think I need to do that  from a bench.

Cheers

[Daryl]

Yes, of course, please bench the rifle, but it must be done properly as well.  My Kodiak .58 shot well offhand, yet for particularly accurate

shooting and to see what the rifle is doing, it should be shot from a rest.  Resting your hand or arm on a tree limb or against the truck is

generally more accurate than offhand, however, be aware that when shooting from a rest (bench) you  MUST hold the gun as if shooting

offhand, simply resting your left hand on the bags. 

DR's & most other guns too, must be held the same as offhand shooting, when shot from a rest, to ensure they duplicate the point of impact

of offhand shooting.  British dangerous game rifles, doubles and singles alike have been shot and sighted in from a standing

rest since about the mid 1800's.  This is to ensure proper placement and filing of the sights.

[Hungry Horse]

If that DuPont can has made in USA on the back it was made after WWII, if it doesn’t it was made before.

  Hungry Horse

[1sogdusm]

It’s post WW2 , $1.55 marked on it.