tenons or staples?

[dave gross]

A question for those fortunate enough to have seen original longrifles disassembled......what did the old masters use most often to pin the barrel to the forearm....tenons or some form of staple?    Let the games begin.

Dave Gross
Way down east in Maine

[jerrywh]

Nobody ever counted all the tenons and figured it out. 

[Lucky R A]

Earlier rifles seem to use more underlugs set into dovetails.  Later period rifles used more staples in various forms.  Later period rifles also seem to use some form of key rather than pins to hold the barrel in place.   IMHO

[Dave B]

I would tend agree with Lucky RA on this. I have several originals that are early to mid 1800's and they mostly have staples. I have some earlier pieces that all have dovetailed under lugs. I know that to date of original barrels I have collected I have more of them with staples than dove tails they tend to be straight sided (not swamped) The few that I have that are swamped have dovetailed under lugs. I have only a small sampling to make this observation. Others with greater access to the real deal on a regular basis are needing to chime in on this.

[Dphariss]

Using staples in a thin barrel wall can dimple the bore no matter when the gun was made.
The 19th century guns often had heavier barrels so staples were OK.
Putting staples in a swamped barrel can be a bad idea.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I agree with Dan.  Original rifles generally had much more iron/steel in the barrel that we use today.  Delicate little bird-like rifles with barrels that bring the weight to 10 pounds is not unusual.  So staples in these voluptuous barrels are fine.  Otherwise,use dovetails cut no deeper than .032".  First you don't need more of a cut, Second, it takes less time to cut a shallow one, and Third, you will not jeopardize the barrel.

[JTR]

Let me preface this with that using words like Always or Never shouldn't be considered on this topic.
So, Generally;
Dovetailed underlugs were used with pins, and staples were used with flat keys. Never say never, but I don't think I've ever seen it the other way around.
Pins seem to be on earlier rifles (1760/80), flat keys more like an 1790/1810 thing, then pins seem to take over again about 1825 and later.
Flat keys were used on many fancy guns, but were used on plain guns as well. And you can say the same for pins too.
And just oppisite of Dave B observation, I've seen many swamped barrels, both fat and skinny, with staples. Given the area of the waist of the swamp, they don't usually have a staple or dovetail right at the waist.
And I agree with Taylor in that dovetails were,,,,, always,,,, very shallow.
So there ya got it,, but then I just got out of bed too, so take it for what it's worth.
John 

[dave gross]

Thanks to all who replied to my query.  I have always considered the relative thin walls of the waist portion of a swamped barrel to be vulnerable to the staking of staples, but noted that Homer Dangler used staples on the barrel of the rifle he built in the video I have seen. I am still on the fence though think that tenons offer the safest solution.

Dave Gross

[AndyThomas]

Dave,

I think of dovetailing the barrel  for loops as practice for dovetailing the barrel for sights. The cuts on the bottom can be rough, since no one sees them, but the cuts on the top need to be nice and pretty.

Hope this helps,
Andy

[Brian]

What about soldering lugs on?     That was done, still is - but how common was it?

[Acer Saccharum]

Estimated 1770-1780 American stocked gun, imported barrel.

[roundball]

Acer, being a neophyte, I appreciate that photo...picture is worth 1000 words.
I know the swamped barrel on an early Virginia I'm having built will be pinned...would it be safe to assume there will be tenons similar to that one in the photo?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I like to use 1/16" pins on rifles and pistols, but the tenon in the photo will receive one about 3/32" or bigger.

[Don Getz]

Over the years I installed hundreds of staples.  Pete Allan used to make, and probably still does, a cast staple with a little foot on the bottom of each leg.    He also sold a little tool with two center punches the exact width of the staple.  I installed them on many thin walled swamped barrels, no problem.   When you get to staking them in, you have to use a
little discretion with that hammer, especially in the thin part of the barrel.  I can remember Homer returning a barrel that
had a tight spot, for some reason it was right at a staple, hmmmmm.    He would not admit that he did something wrong,
so, with him being a good custome, I sent him another barrel.....just part of doing business............Don

[AndyThomas]

Two things from Acer's picture:

The dovetail appears to have been raised with a chisel, rather than simply filed with a trianguler file, though the final fitting may have been done with a file.

The bottom three flats (squares?) appear to have been ground with a grinding wheel, rather than draw filed, to remove most of the rough forging scale.

BTW, I usually use 3/32" pins for barrels and 1/16 for everything else. Barrels sometimes are removed, and the larger pins are easier to knock out.

Andy

[Acer Saccharum]

I like to use 1/16" pins on rifles and pistols, but the tenon in the photo will receive one about 3/32" or bigger.

Taylor, as I recall, the pins were soft iron, and bent all to $#*!, and considerably smaller than the holes in the tenons. Probably nails. I am sure the pins had been replaced several times over the years, so the original ones, who knows what kind of fit they had?

The workmanship on this gun said 'adequate', not 'fine'. This was a workin' gun, and perfectly suited to the task. But nothing fine about it.

[Acer Saccharum]

Andy, the marks are from grinding, for sure. This is an import barrel, with a crown maker's mark. Germany or Belgium probably. There are spots in the grinding where the hammer marks still show. So it was hammered octagonal, and just cleaned up with the grindstone. The bottom flats left as ground, top flats, drawfiled.

The dovetails do appear to be chiseled in, and then the lugs staked with punches to keep them from slipping out. This says expedient rather than meticulous fitting was called for here. Crank it out, get'r done. It is perfectly satisfactory.

Today, if my lug was loose, I'd make another one. That's because I have the luxury of doing so. And the culture is different today, and the clientele have changed.

Back then, slide the lug in, stake it, go on to the next. No fuss. Make it work.

[JTR]

Tom posted a pic of a dovetail lug, so here is one of a staple.
This is a skinny Dickert swamped barrel. 45" long, 52 cal, .990 at the breech, .880 at the waist, and .955 at the muzzle.
The waist of the barrel is midpoint between the two forward staples. And plenty of thickness at the muzzle.
John

[louieparker]

   

John.......I could use that bbl !      LP

[flehto]

My first 2 LRs had staples and I was never satisfied w/ the surrounding metal appearance of the "stake", so...I started to use the "neater"  dovetailed lugs and still do to this day. The lug dovetails are .030 deep and using .062 piano wire for pins allows for a very thin web and the use of "A" or "B" weight swamped bbls  which in turn yields a very trim LR.  Soldered on lugs are very neat and if the web thickness allows this type of bbl lug,  they're very easy to install and in fact, probably the easiest of all to install....Fred

[David Rase]

What about soldering lugs on?     That was done, still is - but how common was it?

From what I have read, the Brown Bess musket had the lugs dovetailed and then brazed.  Of coarse this was for round barrels.  On my round barrels I dovetail and solder. 
DMR

[rich pierce]

I bet a barrel or two has been ruined by guys with hand drills drilling for staples and drilling too deep.  When I have seen an original  barrel stapled it appears a mortise was made with a die-sinking chisel.  I have not seen evidence of drilled staple mortises.  They are fine, just bring it up since we are talking about what we see on originals.

[JTR]

Rich you're right.
The slots for the feet are upset with a skinny chisel, the staple put in place, then the upset edge is pounded back over the foot of the staple.
It shows pretty clearly on the pic I posted.

John

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

When I made my 1st Model Brown Bess, I made up a set of underlugs out of a piece of left over underib. The ideal is that the ramrod pipes' tenon goes into the middle groove, and one pin holds both the stock to the barrel, and the rod pipes at the same time.  They worked very well.  I soft soldered them to the barrel and they have not been a problem since.

[David Rase]

Taylor,  I have always liked the "one pin holds both the ramrod pipe and barrel tennon" on a Brown Bess.  Does anyone know of any other guns that were made that way?
DMR