Author Topic: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests  (Read 24372 times)

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« on: May 18, 2009, 01:24:45 AM »
If a percussion lock is faster that a flint, how much faster?  Is a mule ear faster than a side hammer?  How much faster is it?  We all have had our opinions about these questions.  Our next research is to answer these questions.

Steve Chapman and I have spent time recently designing a fixture, collecting locks, and developing the methods we will use for this project.  This project was hatched in Jim Chamber’s booth at Friendship.  Jim asked if I had ever timed a percussion lock and compared it to a flint.  We discussed ways that this might be done.  Jim started us off with a pistol stock inlet for his pistol kit.  Since it was inlet for a small Siler lock we could use it to make comparisons by swapping locks. 

The project grew when more locks became available.  A fellow shooter and friend makes a sweet mule ear lock on a small Siler lock plate.  We quickly added that to our project.  Another long time friend owns a much modified small Siler flintlock.  It was timed twice and is the fastest non-original flintlock I have timed. 

This brings the lock list up to four: a stock Siler, an intensely modified Siler, a small Siler percussion, and a mule ear percussion.  Below are two photos of the pistol and fixture.  The first shows the pistol in battery.  The second shows a closeup of the pistol rotated vertically.  In this photo you can see the brass contact below the sear.  The muzzle photocell can be seen in the first photo.






Since the fixture holds the pistol in two positions, we can rotate it to vertical for cleaning and reloading.  Then the pistol is lowered into battery and prepared for firing.   The lock is fired by a computer-controlled solenoid located below the sear.   A thin brass blade is positioned just below the sear.  (These can be seen in the second photo.)  When the solenoid is fired it presses the brass blade against the sear, trips the sear,  and starts the computer clock.  A photocell is located at the muzzle and used to stop time.  The actual time measured is from sear contact until material exits the muzzle.   We anticipate that there will be differences in the sear locations of the locks and will shim the brass to keep the distance between the brass and the sear the same.

The methodology will be to load and fire each lock fifteen times and find the average.  The barrel will be drilled and taped for a 1/4x28 drum and also for the mule ear nipple.  After the percussion locks are done, the barrel will be drilled out to handle a 5/16x32 Chambers liner.   The two flintlocks will then be timed and averaged.

In an attempt to control variables, the barrel will be carefully wiped between shots.  The powder, caps, priming powder, etc will be the same throughout.  Loading and cleaning procedures will remain the same throughout. 

Our goal for Tuesday is to complete the percussion phase of the testing.  The flintlock phase will be done after the WL liner is installed.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

roundball

  • Guest
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2009, 03:27:36 AM »
"...The actual time measured is from sear contact until material exits the muzzle..."
Larry, by "material", does that mean smoke and/or flame preceeding the ball could trigger the stop time?

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2009, 04:57:44 AM »
The material we got from the breech experiment was fire and white smoke.  We expect the same here.  We use a sabot to provide mild pressure and to keep the powder in place.  The fit of the sabot doesn't seal anything.  I believe gases escape well ahead of the sabot.  Photos taken show plenty of "material" to trigger the photo cell.

BTW the barrel charge will be the same as in the breech experiment- 20 gr of fffg Swiss.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Dan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2009, 01:08:04 PM »
We'll be waiting for these results for certain! 8)

northwoodsdave

  • Guest
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2009, 04:51:21 PM »
Very nice testing setup!  I too will be watching for the results.

Dave

omark

  • Guest
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2009, 06:59:08 PM »
sure wish i lived down the street, i would love to participate in / help with things like this.     mark

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2009, 11:06:41 PM »
We finished up testing shortly after lunch and had some expected results and some unexpected.


First of all, we found the small Siler percussion to be faster than the mule ear. It was marginally faster but the difference was measurable.  We had expected the short throw and the absense of turns to make the mule ear quicker.  Here are the actual numbers for the 15 trials:

Mule Ear-----------S Siler Perc
.010--------------------.011
.014--------------------.012
.010--------------------.010
.016--------------------.010
.010--------------------.010
.011--------------------.010
.009--------------------.012
.019--------------------.010
.023--------------------.008
.009--------------------.012
.013--------------------.025
.019--------------------.013
.016--------------------.009
.010--------------------.012
.016--------------------.008
------------------------------------
.0137------------------.0115 average in seconds
Temp. varied from 56-60 deg - humidity down from 60-42%

Keep in mind that the same nipple was used.  All cleaning methods were the same.  CCI standard caps were used throuhout.  Also remember that the time was measured from the plunger contact on the sear until fire and smoke came from the muzzle.  We only changed the locks (and of course used a drum with the side hammer lock.  It is our opinion that there is no advantage in the use of this mule ear lock over this side hammer lock on this day- as we would have expected.

We also understand that individual locks differ in the strength of springs, so we consider this simply a test of one lock vs another.

After our surprise wore off and we ate lunch, we decided that we didn't want to wait to see how the flintlock compared.  We had not planned to do this because we wanted to drill and tap for a 5/16" WL liner.  However we had a TC liner that fit the 1/4x28 existing hole.  We will retest this lock with the WL liner, but did the test with the TC liner because we couldn't wait.

Here are the numbers for the standard small Siler with TC liner:

Siler Flint
-------------------
.069
.069
.084
.074
.063
.071
.088
.072
.081
.091
.081
.053
.077
.066
.071
--------------------
.074 average

We expected this type of result.  From earlier trials measuring from pan ignition to muzzle we got  numbers ranging from .036-.046 seconds.  Adding to that the ignition times from known Siler locks (.0370s- my old test Siler)  times of .075 would not be unexpected. 

When we next test, we will time an extensively modified small Siler and retest this standard small Siler.  Both will use the 5/16 WL liner.  I'd speculate that the next set of tests will be an improvement over these flintlock times, but I don't expect them to equal the percussion.  I think we all would have predicted the flint to be slower, but perhaps not have seen the mule ear to be slower than a side hammer.

BTW Steve and I will be going to Friendship Wed to work with the rep from Olympus on high speed video.  We want to get our "ducks in a row" before the June Shoot.

Take care,
Pletch
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 11:07:17 PM by Larry Pletcher »
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2009, 01:50:06 AM »
I like the part where you state that 'you couldn't wait.  That shows how much interested you are in running these tests  and we all thank you!

ironwolf

  • Guest
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2009, 02:22:29 PM »
  Neat test Larry.  I'd be interested in the differences in the WL liner and the conventional liner on the same lock. Keep up the good work.

  Kevin ;)

Offline LynnC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2009, 02:37:36 PM »
I enjoy reading about all your tests - Very Informative!
Thanks.....................Lynn
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2009, 06:09:53 PM »
Yes- very informative for sure - and expected - flint average was 6 1/2 times slower than cap average - with 'best-case scenario using good rifle locks and vent liners, I'd expect times to be only 3 times slower than a cap - as shown by your previous times, Larry.  Excellent!

 

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5328
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2009, 07:22:40 PM »
Great experimentation and info.  I can't detect any difference in ignition time between cap and flint; if I do I call it a hang fire.  The human ear just isn't that finely tuned, I guess.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

chapmans

  • Guest
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2009, 03:07:00 AM »
Daryl,
   The previous tests (touchole/ breech plug) didn't include the time it takes to trip the sear and for the flint to strike the frizzen, in this test we are using a complete lock,, the time starts when the sear is tripped and stopped with the flash at the muzzle, I doubt the flint times will change dramatically. The big surprise to me was the traditional vs mule ear, the traditional edged out the mule ear but not by much?????????
   On another note we had a great day today, we went to Friendship to do the slow motion trial, everything went great but I'll let Pletch give some more of the details.
   Steve C.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9899
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2009, 04:00:30 AM »
Great info guys.
I have had one really slow percussion that was perhaps as slow as a fast flint. Always heard the cap pop. Giving a pop-bang.
I have had others that were really fast, fast as any exposed hammer cartridge gun (1911 etc). This was a pistol with a L&R Manton percussion and a TOW "Hawken" pistol patent breech. Shot hammer fall and just really fast.
I too would have thought the mule ear would have been faster just from the "breech design" but suspect its in the lock mechanics.

This is something that has always been a big question mark for me so I look at it all this stuff with interest.
It cuts though the speculation and the "I think" comments on the subject.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2009, 04:56:52 AM »
Larry, thanks for your work on this. Very informative indeed!

Dan the Other

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2009, 06:02:35 AM »
Thank you all for your comments.  It has been a fun experiment, although we don't regard the flint as definitive.  While the side hammer vs mule ear is solid, we need to do both flintlocks before drawing conclusions.  That said we don't expect great differences when we test both flints again. 

Our surprise, as Steve said, was the relatively insignificant difference between side lock and mule ear.  We expected the mule ear to be significantly faster, and it wasn't.  We spent time discussing why this might be true on the drive home from Friendship.  One consideration might be that too short a hammer throw might be just as bad as too long a throw.  We discussed a test that would isolate mechanical time on the two cap locks from barrel ignition.  More on that later.

BTW, don't forget that this testing was done from sear touch to muzzle.  Other, earlier testing was timed from pan flash to muzzle.   These results cannot be compared to earlier tests without considering what part of the ignition sequence was timed.

Our time at Friendship was helpful in our prep for high speed video on June 15 during the shoot.  We have an interesting video of a Large Siler igniting cannon powder for prime.  We also have slo-mo video of the Everly ball bearing lock.  I'll try to get them uploaded to youtube so you can see them.  All in all it was a good few days.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

roundball

  • Guest
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2009, 06:20:31 AM »
Pletch, your continued unselfish attitude in sharing such unique and unprecedented videos & information from all your tests speaks to your character...thank you again !

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2009, 08:47:33 PM »
On one of the flint trials I got out my Canon and set for High speed burst.  I held the button down while Steve set off the lock.  We ended up with these pics:

 - one after the pan flashed but before the barrel ignited -



 - and one just after the barrel ignited -



Just for fun,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Eric Laird

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2009, 09:34:42 PM »
Pletch,
Since these times start with sear touch, how does depth of the notch affect the time? It would seem that a deeper notch in the tumbler would take more time for the sear tip to clear resulting in a longer time. This would be function of how well the release is tuned, so to obviate that would it be possible to start the time with the movement of the hammer after release. Maybe something like a "deadman"switch that would start the timer when the contact was broken. Just a thought.
Thanks for all your work on this!
Eric
Eric Laird

Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2009, 10:31:11 PM »
Pletch,
Since these times start with sear touch, how does depth of the notch affect the time? It would seem that a deeper notch in the tumbler would take more time for the sear tip to clear resulting in a longer time. This would be function of how well the release is tuned, so to obviate that would it be possible to start the time with the movement of the hammer after release. Maybe something like a "deadman"switch that would start the timer when the contact was broken. Just a thought.
Thanks for all your work on this!
Eric

Hi Eric,
I just went down and checked the lock sears and tumblers on all the locks I have that are part of testing.  With the exception of the mule ear all are Chambers locks.  All had full cock notches that are so close that I would say the depth of notch had no bearing on the results.  None had a sear depth substancially different that the rest.  Even the mule ear notch is with in that range.  Also the solenoid drives pretty hard against the sear.  At the speed the plunger travels I don't think the difference could be measured.

Another thought here is that if I were a lock maker I would not consider making a full cock notch shallower in an attempt to make a lock faster.  I would look at other lock components instead - probably main springs for instance.

All that being said, we did wonder why the side hammer percussion did so well compared to the mule ear.  The mule ear has a VERY strong short main spring and short throw.  We wonder if the throw is so short that the hammer has no distance to accelerate. -just speculating here-

We have devised a way of timing the mechanical movement of the side hammer and the mule ear from sear to cap firing - leaving out the barrel ignition.  We would use the sear plunger to start time as in the past, but stop time on cap blast around the nipple.   Or if that won't set off the photo cell, have the photo cell "look" into a cleanout hole on the opposite flat from the drum.   (We aren't ready to do this - just thinking out loud.)

Regards,
PLetch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2009, 11:20:20 PM »
I'm really disappointed to find out flint is slower than percussion.  ;D

Is this why they switched over?

This news may throw a monkey wrench in my plans for a schuetzen flint rifle. This means I have to hold, hold, hold on the target.

Thanks so much, Larry and Steve. This is just awesome work you have been doing.

Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2009, 12:09:46 AM »
Yer funny Tom.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2009, 12:23:31 AM »
Pletch,
Since these times start with sear touch, how does depth of the notch affect the time? It would seem that a deeper notch in the tumbler would take more time for the sear tip to clear resulting in a longer time. This would be function of how well the release is tuned, so to obviate that would it be possible to start the time with the movement of the hammer after release. Maybe something like a "deadman"switch that would start the timer when the contact was broken. Just a thought.
Thanks for all your work on this!
Eric

Eric, if the switch contact was on the hammer, when the hammer starts to move, the circuit starts timing.

Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2009, 12:24:17 AM »
Daryl, you making fun of me?

Acer
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1663
Re: Flint vs Percussion Lock Tests
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2009, 09:15:07 PM »
Larry,
Is it possible? After your tests are completed for you to run a series with the touchhole drilled out one number size at a time?
Then for the next test start with a fresh WL and using the same components and previous results as your baseline test the MV changes with each size Touch hole?
This should give us the complete package.
I for one, want a little larger TH for faster ignition and reliability and am willing to sacrifice some MV to get it. I would just like to see all the numbers because the results might influence my thinking a little.
American horses of Arabian descent.