Enigmatic piece.

[Pukka Bundook]

Gents,

This one is driving me a little 'round the bend trying to interpret it.
A fellow forum member and myself traded old guns, both are mystery guns, and there is a certain irony in this!...
The one I traded had been stocked for right -handed use, and altered at one time for left -hand, and the one I got was stocked for left -handed use and altered for right hand.
The gun in question that I Need Help with (!)
has barrels marked and in the style of Luis Santos, (Died 1721 and may well be Belgian fakes)
Locks and furniture  by Laborde Paris, (1745 -60)  and was later stocked up apparently in England with V high quality walnut. 
Before I afflict you with a raft of photos, just a few notes;

 
The barrel stamps on the top flats are those of Luis Santos, and he died in 1721.  There is a good chance that these are Belgian fakes as I said above.

Having said that, they have some very early features, including no bottom rib, and a standing breech which has no proper break-off.  The false breech is actually the work I believe of Laborde, Paris.  (1745 -1760)
As this breech is identical on the outside to one made my Laborde and owned by a pal in the UK.
What makes these barrels appear earlier, is the method of attachment to the breech;
The breechplugs have a square lug at the rear, and this fits into square holes in the false breech, But, these lugs have no hooks like we normally see.  The barrels are attached to the breech with screws , so the whole lot must be lifted from the stock as a unit.
The breechplugs  have not been filed down to this shape and method of attachment Later, as the false breech has the holes cut square, and there is no provision for a hook whatsoever.
 
There are no proofs on the barrels, which is common for "then and there".
Now, If the barrels were forgeries made a little later, why mark them below in French?   And if they are original Santos barrels, Why mark them in French??  LOL!!
I do not know what to make of these stampings under the barrel,  cannot make it out.  Any help?
The other barrel has "Canon Tordu"  on it, (twisted barrel)
The barrels are only 26" and show no signs of being shortened. Muzzles are thin, and show the top rib tip as it should look. The fore-sight is a  silver  tear -drop, set well back from the muzzle.
 
The locks have also been modified;
Originally they had the long scear spring, but have had a shorter spring fitted and safety bolts attached.  Maybe the locks were drilled for long scear springs, which were never fitted, and possibly finished with short springs and safety bolts right from the start.
 
Then the stock;
It is English stocking up, (as far as I can tell) and done in the fairly early 19th century.  (Going by style)  and has an Earl's  coronet on the wrist. 
This stocking up was done with the original Laborde furniture as far as I can tell, with an Incredibly Wide trigger-plate, which makes right-hand use V difficult. The triggers are scewed to the left for L -hand use. I think this trigger-plate and triggers could preceed Labard's work, as my pals gun by this maker has normal triggers, set one behind the other.
I need to take more photos, but here are the barrels and breeches, plus triggers and plate.  (and an overall view)
Must say the barrels are beautifully made!


Richard.
































Has anyone seen a set-up like this ?
Ideas, thoughts anyone?
Note, the false breech has obviously suffered with someone at times attempting to lift the barrels in the usual manner.
There is no key to hod down the barrel at the fore-end, but an unusual and apparently Laborde system appears to have been used. More on that next time.

Richard.

Edited to say a pal in  Spain has just informed me that the mark of Luis Santos, has a miniscule S behind the 'L'  for Luis.
This mark has a Dot in that position, so Not the work of Luis.   It appears more now, that it is Laborde work, re-stocked later in the UK.

[JV Puleo]

Could the "Leconoisi..." be a Latinized version of the name Leconte? He was gunmaker to King Louis XV. Stockel gives dates of 1756–1763 which is just about right.

jp

[Telgan]

Bore size?

[Eric Kettenburg]

I once had a very cool French double made by Davier L'Aine in Lyon ca. 1755-1760 with the breech setup exactly as pictured here - screws, must remove barrels and breech as a single unit etc.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks to all for the replies.

Joe,
I think you might be on to something. 
  I do not know enough to comment without spending some time reading up on this.  You know Much more than me about things like this, so I will presume this is a good solid case and leave it at that.
A friend in Portugal says that the last part of the word (L'aine) in French means the eldest son.   More food for thought, but I like your idea better!  :-)

Telgan,
14 bore.   

Eric
The gun you mention with a date of 1755-60 ties up Very well with Joe's thoughts on this, and also with Laborde's working time of 1745 -60.   

It is Very Interesting you had a gun with the same style of breeching Eric!
Do you have any photos of it?  A pal in England has a Laborde, but it has the conventional the break-off, yet on the outside looks nearly identical really.

I am very pleased with all the response,  thank you again.

Richard.

Below, 2 photos of a friend's Laborde with conventional breech break-off

[Eric Kettenburg]

I wrote an article for Muzzle Blasts about the piece, entitled "Anatomy of the French Double" (I took the whole thing apart and dissected it) but it was quite some time ago.  Maybe sometime between @2003 and 2006 or so?  Just guessing.  I still have a copy on an old Zip disk but can't figure out how to get it onto this laptop with no Zip drive.  I think I still have a print copy and probably sooner or later I'll just scan it, whenever I get around to transferring my entire website over to a new site editor that will run on this computer.  Right now it just "exists" and I can't update it or do anything with it - I just keep paying the hosting bill every year!

I had a lot of pictures - I'll look and see if I can find them.  I hunted turkey with it for a bit, got one bird.

[Feltwad]

Could the "Leconoisi..." be a Latinized version of the name Leconte? He was gunmaker to King Louis XV. Stockel gives dates of 1756–1763 which is just about right.

jp

The barrels are Spanish and made in Madrid .The crucifix is a  common Madrid mark , the tombstone  is the makers name  and below that the makers mark. These early barrel were used by many gun makers of different countries , they were well favoured by English gun makers of the late 1700,s I have a s/b gun by Blake 1780 of London  with similar marks  another mark on  these Spanish barrels were three fleur de  leers , when they were proofed at London   they were marked with a P
Enclosed is images of my gun which may be of interest 
Feltwad


Blake s/b flintlock conversion

[smart dog]

Hi Richard,
In my copy of Isidro Soler's "Gunmakers of Madrid" published in the late 18th century shows the mark for Luis Santos to be exactly as it is on your gun. 

dave

[Pukka Bundook]

Dave,

Hi Richard,
In my copy of Isidro Soler's "Gunmakers of Madrid" published in the late 18th century shows the mark for Luis Santos to be exactly as it is on your gun. 

dave

Dave,

With the dot rather than the small "S"? 


If so, the plot thickens!  Please verify Dave.  Yes, I know you said Exactly, and do not wish to be a pain....Is this in W Keith Neal's book?

Edited to add;
Just looked up Lavin, and the punzon he shows has the tiny 'S' behind the L, but in Isidro Soler's work, he indeed shows a dot behind the L.
I understand that maker's did not always use the same stamp, so where does this leave us?

Feltwad,
I think we all agree that the barrels Look Spanish, but we have to bear in mind that many forgeries were produced, even in the 18th century.  With these barrels having some  French text on the underside, we are just trying to suss out what is what, and not merely accept what may be, at face value.

Thank you for posting the photos!  Very kind of you. The barrel you show is a lovely example! 

Gents, the gun in the last two  photos  I posted above (of a Laborde with conventional break-off )belongs to Mr. Feltwad  as well.  A Beautiful example...

Eric,

If you Can find any photos of your gun with the same breeching I'd Really like to see it!

Richard.

[smart dog]

Hi Richard,
Yes, my copy of Soler is included in Neal's book on Spanish guns.  If you notice in the illustrations of maker's marks, many makers had several marks that varied a little.  The marks on your gun also appear to have vestiges of gold in them.  I believe you have Spanish barrels. 

dave   

[Mike Brooks]

I admire all things Enigmatic.

[Pukka Bundook]

Mike,

 

Dave,
Thank you for confirming.   Your time and thoughts are always valued.
What to make of the French markings below the breech?   
 I know that sportsmen visiting far off realms often brought home barrels to have them made up on their return home.  Would barrels be marked in some way by whoever stocked them up? Here I am not counting proof marks like we sometimes see on barrels taken home to the UK.
All I can say, is that this one seems to have been built into a gun in France by Laborde, as the breeches look very like his work, (apart from the screws)
The furniture also fits with being French.

I do value the opinions of all in this thread, and it may have to remain a bit of a mystery where some parts originated.

The locks appear to have been updated in their working life, but no photos yet.  There are holes filled where apparently long sear springs were once fitted, and bolt slides with short springs are now fitted.  Was this work post Laborde?

Another odd thing is that the forward ramrod pipe is made to take an iron rammer, as it will only take a rod of 1/4" in diameter.  Too thin for wood .


The stocking looks very English, done at a later date, say first quarter of the 19th C.
It has an Earl's coronet on the wrist.   
Does anyone have an ideas how to find who this coronet belonged to?
As the initials are" MB"   I looked up all English, Irish and Scottish Earls with those initials, and could only find one likely candidate, a "Montagu Bertie"  5th Earl of Abingdon.  (B 1784, succeeded father, 1799, Died 1854.)
Am I missing something here and over-simplifying things? 

Thanks to all for your help and for looking.

R.

[JV Puleo]

I think you are right on the nose with the attribution to the Earl of Abingdon. Some years ago I asked Stephen Wood, who specializes in this sort or research, the same question. He struck out though I have to guess he didn't devote a lot of time to an offhand request from an American he'd only met once. He did suggest that what I needed to find was an Earl whose actual name corresponded to the initials... which is exactly what you've done. The English peerage has never been very large and a lot of titles have become extinct or, on occasion, assigned to a different family so the chance of finding two Earls in the same period with identical initials is very small.

We should also take into consideration that prior to being known as the Austrian Netherlands (1714-1797), the area we know as Belgium was the Spanish Netherlands (1556-1714). As a dependency of the Spanish crown until well into the 18th century it seems reasonable to presume that the gunmakers there were amply familiar with the products of what may be considered the golden age of Spanish gunmaking. Luis Santos' mark would have been known and appreciated. What is clear is that the mark on those barrels is extremely well made so it seems doubtful its use was a "one off." Given the highly regarded reputation of Spanish gun barrels, I would be amazed if good quality fake ones weren't being made in Belgium, especially for sale in France or England. That Santos died in 1721 would have had no effect at all... witness all the sword blades marked "Andrea Ferrara" or the many guns marked with the names of well-known British makers long after they had died.

[Pukka Bundook]

A very valuable and insightful reply, Joe!

Your reference to Andrea Ferrara blades is Very relevant.   He must have made thousands of swords  after he died...Many more than when he lived.
The Spanish Netherlands is a very interesting point.

I will dig a bit deeper on the 5th Earl, butdid not want to (Publicly!) bark up the wrong tree!

Edited to add;
Looked through all the lists of Earls for England, UK, Ireland and Scotland, and Montagu Bertie is the Only one that shows with correct initials, and I looked at them all tonight, from early 18th C to late 19th C.  He is also the right time period for the re-stocking, Earl of Abingdon from 1799 to 1854.

Re. fakes;

In "An Essay On Shooting" (1789)) we read, Page 47;

"The Spanish barrels have always been held in great esteem,.....It should be observed that those only of the capital , are accounted truly valuable; In consequence of which a great many have been made at other places, especially Catalonia and Biscay, with names and marks of the Madrid gunsmiths;
They are also counterfeited at Liege, Prague, Munich & C  and a person must be a very good judge  not to be deceived by these spurious barrels"

It goes on to say that those of long dead Madrid makers are the most highly prized, (And counterfeited?)  and says they all these Spanish barrels fetch 1,000 French Livres, or about 43 Pounds 15 shillings sterling.

As a  normal thoroughly good barrel cast a mere pound or two at that time, it would appear  forgery was Very lucrative!

Thank you again Joe.  I am very happy with it.

Richard.

[Eric Kettenburg]

About the small diameter rammer pipes:  it was apparently somewhat common on some finer pieces to use whale baleen for rammers.  This was what was used for the rammer on my French piece (although it was broken) and it took me quite some time to determine what it was.  I've since seen it used on a few other pieces as well, all fairly small diameter compared to what one might want to use today.  It apparently was fairly flexible, a bit like fiberglass in consistency.  It mostly looks like ebony, black with areas of dark brown streaking.  I originally thought it might be some type of horn.  Bill Knight might remember this!  He was helping me try to determine what the heck it was.

[Pukka Bundook]

Eric,

I suggested this may have been baleen to a friend just a couple of days ago, as I was wracking my brains as to what it may have been if not iron.
I think baleen is off -white, but of course could and would be died.
Thank you for your thoughts!

Another product used on occasion was rhino horn.    Take a fair rhino to make a ramrod, but it was done.  That wouldn't need staining of course.

There is one clue on this that suggests iron though; The front of the upper ramrod thimble has been broken away, which suggests it is pretty hard, and that something harder than wood (and baleen?) was used for the rammer.

Thank you again Eric.

Richard.

[Bob Roller]

Removal of the top jaws would be the ultimate safety.

Bob Roller

[Joe S.]

While I never have anything of substance to add to these antique gun discussions.I find them extremely fascinating to say the least.

[Pukka Bundook]

Joe,

Without the  interest of yourself and others, it would be pointless posting about them, so Thank You!

BTW,
I removed the buttplate from this gun, and found "F,Brunon"   stamped on the inside.
I asked Joe P. about this, and as he had both editions of Stockel handy, he was able to tell me that this was a maker specialising in iron furniture , either Jean Francois Brunon, 1737 -84, or Francois Brunon, 1784 -1804.  There was a whole family of them in St Etienne.

Ties up very nicely with Laborde locks, as Laborde would buy in the steel furniture.  Steel being much harder to form than brass or silver, and as Joe often says, often as expensive as the latter.

Best,
R.