Author Topic: Precision welding question  (Read 10089 times)

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Precision welding question
« on: May 19, 2009, 01:16:17 AM »
Jerry's gold inlaid screwheads got me thinking....again...

You know those heavily chiseled jaeger barrels, all relief carved from the iron...scenes, vines, etc, all rasied and chiseled?

Anyone ever try welding beads onto steel and then cutting them to shape? It would avoid a lot of that backgrounding of the areas between the raised sections. I am guessing it would have to be TIG or a fine wire fed machine, inert gas shielded.

Acer
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 01:46:32 AM by Acer Saccharum »
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2009, 01:49:01 AM »
The welds would have to be soft, similar hardness as the base material. Also too much heat will distort the barrel.

If I blob too much on, it wouldn't be saving me any time over the original process of chiseling  the whole thing.

Fun to think about.

Acer
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

billd

  • Guest
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2009, 02:13:41 AM »
A lot depends on what kind of steel the barrel is made from.  Then the distortion factor comes in, the wall thickness varies as you go from point, across the flat to the other point.  I wouldn't try it.

Bill

jim m

  • Guest
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2009, 02:34:29 AM »
Acer, something else to consider, almost any welding technique including tig will undercut the metal around the edges somewhat

George F.

  • Guest
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2009, 02:49:46 AM »
Would it get harder around the welded areas also?  ...Geo.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2009, 05:49:26 AM »
Acer, something else to consider, almost any welding technique including tig will undercut the metal around the edges somewhat

That undercutting would be ugly. I'm just posing a question since I am looking to get a TIG someday, and thought I could build up parts, change contours of lockplates, etc. This would be something I'd be willing to try on a piece of junk, just to see what I get.

A friend of mine has been tig welding for thirty years or more. He stretched a barrel for me, and got NO undercutting. BUT! But, he had to add to the puddle, and work the weld so it wouldn't draw from the barrel. In doing raised relief, I am sure there would be plenty of undercuts, because there is no chance to build the weld up without blobbing the design. Like a thin vine suddenly becomes a tree trunk!

 ;D
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2009, 06:22:15 AM »
Quote
A friend of mine has been tig welding for thirty years or more.
Really, I wasn't aware that tig welders had been around since the late 70's.  We bought our first MIG for the shop in the early 90's and it seems like they were just becoming the hot new thing then.  Everyone was still using stick welders or gas back then.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline 44-henry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1126
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2009, 06:22:50 AM »
You could invest in a medium size CNC mill and let the machine do the course removal of material, I think this would be a lot safer the welding option. I've been playing with a Tormach PCNC 1100 mill lately and am impressed by its capabilities and relatively low cost.

Offline Ken G

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5526
  • F & AM #758
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2009, 06:41:46 AM »
Really, I wasn't aware that tig welders had been around since the late 70's.

I believe if you check you will find Northrup started TIG welding during WWII.  I'm no expert and I'm not saying TIG welding was common in run of the mill welding shops but the aircraft industry has been TIG welding for years. 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 06:42:33 AM by Ken Guy »
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

FG1

  • Guest
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2009, 06:53:35 AM »
Really, I wasn't aware that tig welders had been around since the late 70's.

I believe if you check you will find Northrup started TIG welding during WWII.  I'm no expert and I'm not saying TIG welding was common in run of the mill welding shops but the aircraft industry has been TIG welding for years. 

I run my first mig welder in Vocational Ed Training in '72 .

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2009, 07:07:21 AM »
Major PITA.
For one thing some weld done with a tig is almost sure to get pretty hard.
Any amount of welding on a barrel will almost surely make it crooked.
Easier to make a screw with a tall head than weld it up.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

tuffy

  • Guest
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2009, 07:12:13 AM »
I took a welding class at Western Iowa Tech in 1977 and did both tig and mig. The instructor said they'd been around for years.

Offline FL-Flintlock

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2176
    • Fire & Iron Mfg.
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2009, 08:20:38 AM »
Common methods of welding be it with electric arc or gas flame will induce a certain amount of stress into both the base and filler metal.  Any type of common welding would dictate the need for correctly heat treating the entire barrel following most any of these processes; even the most tightly controlled process will have resultant issues in the HAZ (heat affected zone).

Flame-spray does not offer a fine degree of deposit control and this process would require pre-heating the entire barrel evenly during the duration of the process to help prevent warping but it will not guarantee that it won't warp. 

Cold transfer twin-wire arc spray offers several benefits.  Because very little heat is induced into the base material, there is almost no chance of warping or inducing stress.  This method also affords a very high degree of deposit control through the use of stencils and the air jet.

The biggest problem with any build-up method is obtaining deposit material alloy that exactly matches the base metal alloy; any difference in the alloy will show with just about any finish you put on it.  If you can obtain the same filler alloy and the weldment is properly post-treated, it isn't a problem maintaining the same color, grain and hardness consistency throughout.

It is possible to do surface spot build-up without undercutting using variations of the GTAW & GMAW processes but it's not something that is easily learned nor accomplished to the degree that would be required for this application.  In common circumstances, surface disruption of a few thousandths around the edges of the weld is not an issue but in this application they'll stand out like a neon sign.  There are two ways to completely eliminate any undercutting and that's to overfill then remove the edge portions that are not fully bonded to the base material or to pre-heat the base metal to the point where 100% bonding can be obtained. 

Cost in both time and materials is going to be the determining factor.  Just because it "can be done" does not mean that doing it is "cost effective".  Standard run on a cold transfer twin-arc spray using "cheap" consumables is around $450/hour, figure in the additional set-up time for fine control and special alloys and you're looking at some big bucks.  Even going with a manual process like GTAW or GMAW the set-up and materials costs will be excessive and I can pretty much guarantee you're not going to find GMAW filler wire that is color compatible with any of the common barrel alloys.

Bit-o-history:
The theory of using inert gas arc shielding dates back to the 1890's but it wasn't very practical until the late 1920's.  GAW (Gas Arc Welding) and specifically CAW (Carbon Arc Welding) was the first common manual process but not really in wide-spread use until the early 1920's.  In semi-automated processes, some industries were using materials other than carbon electrodes but the use was pretty much limited to controlled atmosphere containments such as in the vacuum tube manufacturing industry.  GTAW (sometimes called heli-arc) was most commonly used in aircraft and other specialty industries by the late 1930's and by the mid 1940's it saw some considerable advancements and was getting used in a lot more industries.  GMAW came about in the 1920's but never became very practical for non-atmospheric controlled containments until the late 1940's and by the early 1950's it was making its way into a lot of industries and was in wide-spread use by the early 1960's.  By the late 1960's GMAW was finding its way into smaller job-shops but it didn't make it into wide-spread use in the field until the late 1970's and at that its use was limited more by the unwillingness of humans to change their ways.  During the late 1980's and through the 1990's, considerable advancements were made in both the GTAW & GMAW processes thanks to the considerable advancements in electronic controls.  Reliable power-factor, timed pulse and waveform electronic controls opened up a whole new realm applications as did advances in SSFC (Self-Shielding Flux-Core) wire and the ability to package a wider array of alloys in wire form.  Auto-feed filler GTAW also saw great advances in the same time period.  Another misconception is that automated welding is a rather "new" idea when in fact it is not.  Fully-automated self-sensing robotic welding is new but semi-automatic robotic welding machines have been in use since the late 1940's.  While the fancy electronic controls and sensors were still decades in the future, some enterprising mechanics employed the use of chain & gear drives, cam followers and clutches to make extremely efficient automated welding machines.  The early automated processes began their lives primarily in the boiler and ship-building industries where repetitive pattern welding is quite common.  Despite all the advances in electronic controls and robotics, the pipe welding industry still relies heavily on the same basic all-mechanical semi-automated welding machines that were being used more than 60 years ago. 

Some of my toys.


« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 02:31:59 PM by FL-Flinter »
The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2009, 09:39:08 AM »
Forget welding.  Think iron inlays in releif.  I can't prove it but I would bet a lot of the raised rococo work on originals are iron inlays in relief. I know at least three other engravers besides my self that can do that and you cannot tell the difference between chiseled relief and the chiseled relief inlay.  There are at least two different ways to do it.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 10:06:28 AM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Michael

  • Guest
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2009, 01:52:23 PM »
Jerry,

Can you give us a explanation of how you would do iron inlays in relief, sounds very interesting.

Michael

Leprechaun

  • Guest
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2009, 03:47:47 PM »
Jerry's gold inlaid screwheads got me thinking........


You know those heavily chiseled jaeger barrels, all relief carved from the iron...scenes, vines, etc, all rasied and chiseled?

Anyone ever try welding beads onto steel and then cutting them to shape? It would avoid a lot of that backgrounding of the areas between the raised sections.

COULD you use a bead of weld as a shortcut to relief chiseled engraveing?. I suppose. You could also use a scroll saw to cut roccoco carving out of a sheet of balsa wood and glue it to your stock as a shortcut to relief carving. You should have posted this "thought" 49 days ago.

Quote
I'm just posing a question since I am looking to get a TIG someday, and thought I could build up parts, change contours of lockplates, etc.

For THIS, a mig works great. I suspect that a tig would be even better.


Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2009, 04:08:34 PM »
Good stuff, guys.

Jerry, that might explain how some of the old work has background that is so darn flat.

Mark, thanks for the welding history, that is really interesting for me, coming from an industrial background. I always like to see new and old things about manufacturing. Also, I appreciate you taking the time to explain about the different processes as they might apply to my question. You da man.

Thanks for all the info, guys. Welding up relief is impractical, from the sounds of it, but I do know if I had a TIG, I'd be trying it anyway!  ;D

Acer
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2009, 06:44:43 PM »
FL-Flinter,
Thanks for the history lesson.  I assume the advances in electronic controls also aided in the miniaturization of the machines, kinda like the difference between the first computers and today's laptop.  Were the old ones big, clunky machines?
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2009, 07:06:23 PM »
 Welding on a barrel is a very bad idea.
 There was an article in the engraver a couple of months ago about iron inlays in relief. I think it was #82.  It was a new process for me. I had known two ways to do it before but this was different.
  The inlay was first cut out of soft sheet iron. Damascus steel works well for this.  The inlay is then placed on the parent metal [ barrel or whatever ] and traced around it with a scriber.  The cavity is then cut out , just as you would do if you were going to install a gold inlay. The cavity is undercut the same way as for any inlay. 
   Then the iron inlay is turned upside down and the bottom of it is hollowed out to make a concave surface. This causes the inlay to spread out at the bottom when it is pounded flat. The inlay is then placed in the cavity and pounded down. when pounded down the inlay spreads out at the bottom and is wedged into the cavity. At the same time it work hardens. It will not come out. It is then punched and sculpted to shape.  That’s one way.
   The late great master engraver Frank Hendrix did it a different way. I won't tell you how he did it. You all need something to keep you from being bored so --- look it up. He mentioned it in a tape he produced.
     This is probably how some of the English gunmakers of old installed barrel lugs. The cavities only need be about .020 deep--- maybe even less
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline rick landes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 404
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2009, 07:33:01 PM »
FL-Flinter,
Thanks for the history lesson.  I assume the advances in electronic controls also aided in the miniaturization of the machines, kinda like the difference between the first computers and today's laptop.  Were the old ones big, clunky machines?

We do R&D machine testing for Miller Electric and we have seen machines that can do as best I can estimate anything a rifle builder would dream up that run on 110 and are the size of a metal lunchbox.

Dear Administrator...I am intending this to be info only not as sales pitch or endorsement for any brand over another...just sharing info on some of the new edge toys out there..
“No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2009, 08:08:39 PM »
The late great master engraver Frank Hendrix did it a different way. I won't tell you how he did it.

Now ya got me on the edge of my chair, Jerry. Thanks for the info. I will have to get the Frank Hendricks tape.

Perhaps Weldon, on the 'Engraver's Cafe" forum did a brief tutorial on this method also. Fun stuff to think about.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2009, 08:10:12 PM »

Dear Administrator...


  :(  .....   :o  .......   ;D 
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2009, 03:43:07 AM »
Forget welding.  Think iron inlays in releif.  I can't prove it but I would bet a lot of the raised rococo work on originals are iron inlays in relief. I know at least three other engravers besides my self that can do that and you cannot tell the difference between chiseled relief and the chiseled relief inlay.  There are at least two different ways to do it.

THIS makes sense.
Thanks for the education.
Now continue ;D

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Precision welding question
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2009, 04:59:47 AM »
Another way to inlay iron might be to trace around your inlay, cut the pocket down, then take a chisel and stab into the sidewall at the bottom of the pocket, which will lift the metal raise the edge all around. The inlay should have a slight reverse taper. Drop it into place, and peen the surrounding metal down, locking the inlay in place.

Acer
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.