Author Topic: Why do I have random fliers?  (Read 4792 times)

m1garand_man

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Why do I have random fliers?
« on: March 31, 2018, 10:57:20 PM »
For the most part my rifle shoots alright at 100y, especially after doing some work to the sights so I could see them better. The rifle can keep a 10 shot group in the black circle on a small bore target at that distance. I believe that's a 8" circle or so. My frustrations lie in the fact that if it weren't for the one flier ever 5 or so rounds these groups would be more like 4" or less.

I have been trying my hardest to ensure everything is consistent from how I measure the main charge to centering the patch (a little error is almost unavoidable) to finding the seam in my swaged round balls and orienting it the same way every time to how I rest the rifle. I'll typically swab between groups. The fliers can occur at any point in the string.

Is this normal to deal with or is there something I'm missing? How critical is it to center patches or orient the seam of the bullet?

Offline Fyrstyk

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2018, 11:13:50 PM »
If you are using swaged balls I suggest you weigh them first before firing.  Weigh the balls in the box and sort them by weight (+-.1grain).  You will be surprised at the variance in the ball weights.  I would be willing to bet that your flyers ar light weight balls.

Offline Sharpsman

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2018, 12:23:09 AM »
No problem centering the patch if cut at the muzzle!

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Offline hanshi

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2018, 12:56:26 AM »
I have that problem as well.  But in my case it's because I'm right eye dominant and my right eye is not that good.  I find it difficult to focus on the front sight and get a clear picture shot after shot.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2018, 02:08:36 AM »
m1garand,

Try shooting 1 shot on 5 targets and see if they appear to group in the same area. Also, don't look through the spotting scope at the previous shot.......shoot all five targets before you check them.

When I started shooting service rifle matches I would always get that 1 or 2 flyers in a 20 shot string that bugged the $#@* at of me. No matter what I did they were always there. A master told me I was anticipating my groups and worried about the last shot. He said shoot the rifle and the target would take care of itself. The shot that is important is the one you are about to send down range. Call ever shot.

Don't know if this will help and it took a while but finally got it.
aka “digger658”

Offline okawbow

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2018, 02:57:24 AM »
I’ve seen that most of my fliers are due to a blown patch, caused by the cloth burning through, or being damaged at loading.
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2018, 04:38:12 AM »
Weighing your bullet will do you no good. I did it for years, wish I could reclaim all the time I wasted, and purge myself of all the lead I needlessly exposed myself to. I was weighing rounds one day when a longtime shooter came by and ask me what the heck I was doing. I told him, and he laughed in my face. He scooped up a handful of my rejects, and dragged me out to the range, where he proceeded to whip me like a red headed stepchild with my reject bullets. Your problem is likely blown patches, but could also be patched that started to schread when they were loaded.

  Hungry Horse

m1garand_man

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2018, 05:03:01 AM »
I know from my decade of reloading that weighing bullets is  pretty pointless, no offense to those of you who still do it.

I'll have to start retrieving my patches. I have been playing around with different thickness patches. I have been using ones as thick as .018 and as thin as .0145

Well I have. Another experiment to do next weekend now. I do like having all these shooting experiments to do now. I also really appreciate the help from all of you. This forum has been invaluable.


Gary W.E.

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2018, 03:57:45 PM »
You seem to have covered most of the issues that could be the problem with your barrel. It also sounds like you have a good barrel with the groups you are placing. My guess would be you are having a problem with the ignition. Try cleaning your touch hole after each shot along with swabbing the barrel.

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2018, 06:43:00 PM »
Do the fliers create another group?   Where?  2 o’clock?  6 o’clock?
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2018, 08:06:11 PM »
I place fliers squarely in the hands of karma (shouldn't have "FFFFFFFFFFT" at the cat)  :D

and June bugs or bumble bees. 

HAS TO BE!!!


good luck  ;)
Hold to the Wind

Offline Daryl

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2018, 08:54:59 PM »
"It" happens. To some with less experience in shooting, "It" happens more often.

Sounds as if you are doing everything right & I agree with not checking the group until you are finished.

Patch condition before and after is of vital importance.  I personally have not checked ball weights since the 70's
when I decided at the ranges normally shot with round balls, it was likely a waste of time. Now, if in competition at
200yards, I might weigh the balls, if I remembered to do that, which at this stage of the game, not likely.

Muzzle condition/shape to not cut the thick patch upon starting - check ALL spent patches to ensure patch integrity.

Sounds as if you are doing everything right.  Some folks need specific sight shapes to shoot well.  Different bull sizes
makes a LOT more difference in the final groups size than one might think.

Usually the smallest bullseye you can see over your sights - having to REALLY concentrate on the perfect sight picture,
will lend the smallest groups- at any range.  Double bagging helps, with some rifles being really picky where the rifle
is rested on the bags.  I used to be able to shoot well at range, with hand held with my hand rested on the bags. Now
I shot better groups with the forend and underside of the butt on the bags. Heart rate (side of the cheek against the stock)
is a bummer, only seen if using as scope & is good for  2" extra on the group size if the shot is taken at the wrong time.
It's aggravating.

Here's a reproduction of a group at 100 meters with my 14 bore rifle made by Taylor GRRW barrel, 66" twist.  Fliers happen.
 



This one is from an original Joseph Lang 16 bore rifle, 48" twist.


« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 08:56:55 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Waksupi

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2018, 09:37:09 PM »
Another thing to look at, is try different lubes.
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana

Offline hanshi

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2018, 12:33:40 AM »
Lubes and patches both are critically important while, in my experience, perfect ball is not.  I never weigh ball I cast and only give them a casual glance when they drop from the mold.  In the past I've fired groups just as good using rejects as I've fired using very nice ball.  In certain guns/applications I often patch with mattress ticking.  I check these fired patches and if I find burns/tears I go to my favorite which cotton canvas duck; that material rarely even shows any sign of being fired.  If it wasn't for the frayed edges, normal with any patch, I'd figure they were fresh lost ones.  These patches can be used again.  At the range I lube with Hoppes about 75% of the time and mink oil the other 25%.  In the bush I lube with mink oil 75% and Hoppes 25%.  And as has been suggested I tend to do better on targets when I don't check each shot or sometimes each target before shooting the next one. 
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2018, 12:48:50 AM »
Taylor testing loads at 100 meters.




Daryl

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m1garand_man

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2018, 04:30:15 PM »
Quick question, in light of the criticality of the type of patch lube used, if I'm using a 50/50 mix of bees wax and coconut oil and want to thin it out a bit more would it be safe to add olive oil to the mix? What would a good starting point be for the ratio? I don't want to overdo it and ruin 16 oz of lube that I have on hand. But it also takes a while to let things cool down to check viscosity.

Right now my lube is pretty solid on the patch until you handle it. Coconut oil melts at 76*f so I'd say this lube gets soft around that point with the wax in it. The patches are very heavily lubed to the point that some squeezes off at the muzzle.

Finally how much resistance should I be experiencing when starting the ball? The .018 patches and .490 ball are tight but when I use a .0145 and a .495 ball they pop in really right. When I recently pulled one of those loads from the gun the weave of the patch and rifling was embossed on it. That dosent happen with the other combo. I think that might be excessive.

Offline LH

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2018, 10:10:25 PM »
You may not eliminate the fliers that occur every 7 or 8 shots until you change some component of the load.  Like ball size, patch cloth, lube, powder type and amount.  I have seen muzzleloaders act like that many many times.  five six or eight shots in a good tight round group, then a flier.  The fliers usually go in the same direction if its a load component problem. The list of variables that "might" be the cause is as long as your arm.  The fact that you have recognized the problem is step one though.  Don't get discouraged.  In my experience with lubes,  I think your lube might not be a good choice.  "Might" being the key word.  Try some liquid lubes and or any other kind of lube.  There's about 49 million recipes just on the pages of ALR.  ;D  Ball size and patch cloth and powder on down the line one at a time.  Be patient and good luck. 

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2018, 10:18:11 PM »
... the gun the weave of the patch and rifling was embossed on it. That dosent happen with the other combo. I think that might be excessive.

Exactly what my first instructions were as I entered the rocklock world, from a man who graced the cover of MuzzleBlasts in the 1970's and has built a few rifles.  Summarized:

"See that?"
he says-referring to the impression of the weave of the patch upon the ball,
"That's what you want." he concluded. 

John Anderson, Tullahoma
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 10:19:27 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline Curt Lyles

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2018, 04:49:38 AM »
I wouldn't mix that much beeswax in your coconut oil in fact I would start out with no beeswax at all and just see how that works I've had the best luck without beeswax at all mixed in. I would also weigh and measure the round balls that you're using because most guys will cast with a 3- or five ball mold and depending on who made the mold the balls might not be the same so you won't know that till you measure or weigh them

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2018, 08:06:02 AM »
Random flyers are easy to understand if you are a traditional archer.  Sucks to be mortal!
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Offline Waksupi

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2020, 12:08:20 AM »
I see this is an old topic, but I will poke it with a stick to see if it moves.

If you get fliers, try swabbing the bore between shots. Especially using Bore Butter and such. Very easy to over lube with those.
A flier can occur from bore purging, trying to clean it's self of powder and lube fouling. That increases internal ballistic pressures and velocity, and can cause a wild shot.
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana

Offline alacran

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2020, 02:55:03 AM »
Are you using wind flags at 25 and 50 yards?  A slight change in the wind will cause a ball to go out of group. Reading the wind is of paramount importance with round balls at 100 yards. Also the light can vary in the time a shot is taken and you ready for the next shot.
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Offline recurve

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2020, 05:23:44 PM »
I know why I get them FLINCH


Offline Daryl

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2020, 08:58:41 PM »
Flyers happen, mostly due to aiming errors.
It is difficult to do everything exactly the same every time, since we stand & move the rifle to load
then put it back on the bags and re-sit to shoot.  This magnifies aiming errors.
Both of the right-hand targets have fliers.  The other ones might have as well, but not as obvious.
Id4entical load used for the top targets while different loads were used for the 1st 2 lower targets than the last one.
I would suggest the lube you used, M1Garand, is not suitable for good shooting.  The addition of beeswax might not be
a good one, for shooting patched round balls. Too, your patches are not thick enough, imho.
These were shot at only 50 yards.




Daryl

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Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: Why do I have random fliers?
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2020, 01:30:22 PM »
If it wasn't for guys like Wade and Daryl and D.Taylor I am not sure I would even read this section.  Their level of detail is so thorough it either makes great science or great comedy or both.

The moral of the story is probably something like this...

If you're gonna go fight bad guys  don't risk your life on that random shot.  Take Daryl or Wade or D. Taylor with you because they will surely make up the difference. I probably need a laser range finder to shoot like them