frizzen problems

[KenH]

Hello all - this is my first post and I'm seeking help.  I got this Richland Arms flintlock pistol more as a wall hanger to display with the Joe Musso Bowie display case.  This pistol isn't going to get shot lots, mostly want to play with it from time to time.



The darn thing just won't spark. I've purchased the "good" flints from Dixie Gun Works, but not sure if they were the Arkansas flint or English flints. They do NOT spark, and I think the frizzen might be the problem. Take a look at this photo:


Note the metal part that is solder on top of the frizzen? That piece of metal has a "lighter color" than the metal of the frizzen - AND, a file cuts it nicely. Shouldn't the surface of the frizzen be case harden so when the flint strikes it will spark better?

Before I heat it up to remove that top layer and do a case hardening on the frizzen I wanted opinions from this knowledgeable group.  "IF" ya'll do approve case hardening the frizzen, how smooth should it be?  36 grit sandpaper?  120 grit?  I'd use Cherry Red case hardening compound - that stuff seems to work good on mild steel.

Thanks to all for any guidance,

Ken H>

[Mark Elliott]

That is a half sole and it should be riveted on so that it could be hardened.    Normally a half sole would be of hardenable steel like from a saw blade.   You would rivet it on and then harden and temper the whole thing.    I would find a new frizzen if I could.   Otherwise,  it would have to be properly half soled and heat treated.   

[Stan]

Mark is right !  Unless  you know what kind of steel the shoe is made of I wouldn't use it. If you take the shoe off you could hot pack the existing frizzen,  however you would need a heat treating furnace
& that would take about 4 hours for a good job. Stan

[KenH]

I got the heat treating oven - use it for heat treating the custom knives I build.  While packing might be better for a long term fix, what about a case hardening use Cherry Red?  It does a good job of making mild still HARD on the surface.  This would give a chance to test rest of lock to be sure it all works.  This is a cheap flintlock, even when it was new.  It doesn't have a half cock position, just full cock and fired position.  It really seems like the stroke is a bit short, but what do I know about flintlocks.  I'd hate to spend a lot of money, the have to purchase a new lock to make it work.

Ken H>

[Hungry Horse]

Ken I have done both, case hardening, and half soling of frizzens. The problem with case hardening is the weakest part of the frizzen ( the place where the virtical surface meets the pan cover) is very vulnerable to becoming brittle, and breaking off. Case hardening also wears through with heavy use, and you have to do it all over again. Half soling is pretty much a permanent fix, unless you shoot the devil out of the gun for like twenty years. The half sole you now have was made and applied by someone with little or no knowledge of what they were doing. For starters it doesn’t cover the face of the frizzen, and it’s to thick, which ruins the geometry. Also as you stated it’s not properly tempered. You will not find a replacement frizzen for this lock that doesn’t have the same issues. I like to use old hand saw blades for facing frizzens. Good luck.

  Hungry Horse

[KenH]

OK, ya'll have pretty much convinced me to do the half sole to the frizzen.  Would AEB-L stainless steel spark?  It's around .80% carbon I normally HT, then temper back to around 60/61 Rc.  I can easy leave it around 62 Rc if need be that hard.  The advantage of the AEB-L is I've got plenty that's .040" thick.  I do have a piece of 80CRV2 (basically 1084), but it's .130" thick.  I can cut a piece and put on surface grinder and bring it down to desired thickness. 

What is the idea thickness here?

Thanks to all for the help 'n guidance.  Perhaps I should have mentioned this pistol "might" get fired 20 times/yr?

73 de Ken H> K9FV

[Mark Elliott]

I would suggest a plain carbon tool steel like 1085/95.    If it was me,  I would use some 1/32" 1085 that I have for springs.     Temper at 400F.   

[KenH]

OK, I'll take the 80CRV2 (1084) and grind it down to .032" thin....  boy, that is thin!  Should be pretty easy to form to the shape of the frizzen that thin - then HT and temper at 400F - PID is already set there for powder coating cast bullets. {g}

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Love the Bowie!  Did you build it?

[KenH]

Yes, it's forged from a 2" wide by 1/4" bar of 1080.  Forging got me the curve in the blade and moved it out to 2-1/4" wide just like the original.  I found a drawing of the original Bowie that was made to scale, printed it out, then cut from paper to an aluminum sheet so I could lay the blade on the pattern while forging to get it "just right". 

Thank you for the nice words.  I enjoy making knives - most are either skinner or kitchen knives.

[flehto]

Was this pistol meant to be shot or just displayed? That would be a good way to prevent a gun from discharging. ...perhaps the soft sole was intentional?......Fred

[KenH]

This pistol was meant to be shot - it's one of those old Richland Arms that was imported from Italy or Spain back in 70's 'n 80's.

I need some expert help here.  To my mind, it seems the hammer/flint/frizzen arrangement isn't correct.  Take a look at the first photo - does that hammer look like it's far enough back so the stroke is long enough?  That is the full cock position, there is NO half cock in this lock.


This next photo shows where the flint will first strike the frizzen as it's fired - looks to me like it's hitting low on frizzen - comments please.


The next photo is where I marked the frizzen face with magic marker and dry fired to see where the flint was hitting.  You can see the mark in the middle where the flint first struck, then flint moved away and scraped right at the bottom a bit.  Maybe the frizzen spring is a bit weak allowing the flint to knock the frizzen back a tad so it skips over the middle of frizzen?


I'll be removing the half sole on the frizzen pan and making a new half sole from something like 1084.  I'll HT and temper.  But, I wanted comments from ya'll who know so much about flintlocks.  This is the first flintlock I've ever fooled with and would like to learn about them.  You know, they say us old folks need to keep the brain active and this is a LOTS more fun that crossword puzzles 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Some locks have specific preferences with flints.  Yours would strike higher on the frizzen if it were a thinner piece of stone, and if you were to mount the flint with the bevel up rather than down as in this picture.  But you are correct - it isn't a very well designed lock.

[Mark Elliott]

OK, I'll take the 80CRV2 (1084) and grind it down to .032" thin....  boy, that is thin!  Should be pretty easy to form to the shape of the frizzen that thin - then HT and temper at 400F - PID is already set there for powder coating cast bullets. {g}

You don't have to grind it down to 1/32".   I just stock 1/32" and my next size up would be 1/8".    You don't want it so thick that it ruins your lock geometry.   You could always put a little thicker sole on with a deep countersink on your rivets to allow you to grind some off once installed.    But as to 1/32",  it would take a long time to wear through that hardened and tempered to 400F.   

[KenH]

I just turned the flint over and it's got a bit better angle now - hits higher on the frizzen face. Flint tip still doesn't really reach middle of pan. I'm thinking this is just a bad lock design and even with a high carbon half sole it might not spark the way it should.

I removed the existing half sole, it would up being about .045".   I cleaned up, heated to cherry red, dunked in water - it actually hardened.  Not sure how much, I'll try to test Rc hardness...... once I find it again.  I laid it down somewhere, and now I can't find it.  It's GOT to be laying around here somewhere.  Anybody ever do that but me?

I'd think 1/8" might be so thick it was change angles of flint striking frizzen to much? 

Thank you for all your help.

[smallpatch]

Last week, I dropped a lock bolt from waist high.....never to be seen again.  Tore shop apart and cleaned everything.....still no bolt.
Gremlins?

[Tim Ault]

That lock looks almost identical to mine in this thread about the bad geometry and how I made it better .
 http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=47888.msg473783#msg473783

[KenH]

Tim, it looks like you've done a good job on your lock.  I might have to do something like that. 

As I said before, I HT'd the half-sole, and it did harden.  Cleaned it up good, I wanted to test it so glued with superglue just to test.  I dry fired it, could see sparks.  I filled the pan with FFF and it lit it right off!  I put a light load of FFF down the bore, tamped it down nicely with a paper towel.  It fired!  The sparks are NOT what they should be - they are orange, but not many of them.  I'm hoping the new lock will work better if I can make it work.  Maybe a better frizzen would help?  Heck if I know.

Today is the first time in my life I've seen a flintlock fired in real life, and for sure the first time I've ever fired one!  So, you can see my learning curve.  I've been fooling with percussion muzzle loaders for many years - got 2 of them now.

Thanks again - I'm sure having fun learning all this "new" stuff.

[Hungry Horse]

There are two locks that use these external parts. Dixie Gun Works used both of them on some of their imported rifles and pistols. One of these locks has pretty good cast internal parts, while the other has stamped steel parts. You want the lock with the cast internal parts. The lock with the stamped parts are quite sloppy, and wear out quickly. The frizzens are all the same. They will harden slightly, and you may get a few shots out of them before they start misfiring, but when you heat them up enough to harden them, they get brittle right at the bottom of the  Frizzen.
 The flint in your picture is too short. If you turn it over it will strike higher on the frizzen. On these locks if you can get the flint to strike about half way up you are lucky.

  Hungry Horse

[Eric Krewson]

Another thing; There are flints and there are flints, some are much better sparkers than others. I just changed out a Texas white chirt flint that was so-so in my turkey gun for a Tom Fuller black English flint, now I have a fireworks display when I drop the hammer.

[JCKelly]

If this gun happens to have been made in India, with a barrel of seamless tubing, you are fortunate the frizzen is as it is.

[KenH]

You're right on the flint - I turned it over and now it strikes much higher on the frizzen.  I suspect those bad frizzens are why somebody did the half-sole.  I suspect they did harden the half-sole, but they silver soldered it to the frizzen.  Even though they didn't get it hot enough to fully melt the silver solder (high temp over 800⁰F) it was way hotter than the half-sole could stand without losing it's hardness.  If you're going to use solder the half-sole, be sure to use the low temp STA-BRITE solder which melts around 420⁰F range - right at the tempering range of high carbon steel.

I need to post a photo showing the hammer with flint turned over, and one with hammer in fired position.  In fired position it looks like the tip of flint is a long ways from the pan, but that might be ok.

Thanks to all for the help

[KenH]

OK, here are the two photos mentioned after turning the flint over.  First is hammer cocked:


It looks a lots better - I think anyway. 

Next is the hammer in fired position - it sure looks like the tip of flint is a long way from pan, but is pretty much over the flash hole (center of pan?).


I just checked and the .375" balls for my 36 cal Navy fit nicely when they are wrapped in a pre-cut patch that is.... linen?  And about .020" thick for the layer of cloth.  Place circle over bore, put ball on top, press down.  Doesn't need a starter rod, but just smooth pressure to seat ball on power.

With 3F power in horn I can put the charge in barrel, shake the barrel a bit with pan side down and pan fills nicely with powder.  Fun to shoot!  Next is to do some actual target practice with it.  Tonight I'm just shooting in back yard - nice not living in city limits!

Thanks again for all your help, and please comment on these last two photos.  Oh, this lock is fully cast, I don't see any stamped parts at all.

Ken H>

[Tim Ault]

Another thing that helped me with this lock is using a longer flint . I believe there made to use a 5/8  I'm using a 3/4 which is longer length . Glad you got it making smoke .

[Hungry Horse]

If the pan self primes from the main charge, the touch hole is way too big. I would suggest a Chambers white lightning liner.
 I have two muzzleloaders with these locks in them. My SMR has the better of the two, but has had an old Dixie P1 flintlock frizzen reworked to fit it. It is the most reliable flintlock I have seen. The other gun is a Dixie “York” kit gun, that has the poorer of these two locks in it. After reworking one part after another trying to get the flintlock to function reliably I finally gave up, and sawed the pan off, plugged the screw holes with copper wire, and brazed an iron hammer face into the jaws, to convert it to percussion. I use this gun at demonstrations to show what a field conversion to percussion looks like.

 Hungry Horse