Ramrod channel coming through stock

[Garytomb]

I have an issue with the ramrod channel surfacing in the area in front of the lock mortise. It has not come completely through but the wood is very thin (about a 5" area effected) and bubbled. Was going to glue in a hardwood dowel from tail pipe to end of channel and re-drill. Looking for recommendations. Thanks

[rich pierce]

It’s coming out the side of the stock?  If you fill with a dowel in that area it will show when you work the stock down. I would still glue a dowel in and later patch over the dowel as needed.

[Garytomb]

Thanks for the response! Coming out the bottom of the stock....

[smylee grouch]

If its coming out in front of the trigger guard you might consider a wear plate inlay of some sort.

[ddoyle]

Cut a clean paralell sided opening where it wants to come thru. Explain that it is the latest innovation from the continent designed to keep the rod from becoming stuck.  If you want a forearm with out the groove on the bottom maybe fill it as you suggested and use a thinner iron/mild steel ram rod?

edit: just read smylees post- wear plates look pretty neat when done well and would extend the fun of the build for another day.

[Scota4570]

A brass plate over that area was used on some originals.  I depends on how OCD you are about perfect.  You could to try it and see how it looks.   

Most  stock vendors will work with you if it was their fault.  You could start again?

I find it easier and faster to build a stock from a board that a poorly done pre-carve.   I spend lots of  time head scratching and measuring pre-carves.  Figuring out fixes for crooked pre-carves is very time consuming and frustrating for me.   I find it much easier to lay out and inlet a plank.  The outside shaping follows easily, I enjoy that part.   

[Hungry Horse]

If you decide to fill it, and redrill it, you better prepare yourself for some serious disappointment. The dowel you glue in will present you with not only serious endgrain to drill through, but also whatever you use to glue it with will fight you as well. Go with a wear plate, even the most accomplished builders of their times have made guns that require a  Wearplate. They were so common that some gunsmiths added them to nearly every gun they built.
 A friend in Nevada had the opportunity to examine a group of Kentucky rifles that had been consumed in a house fire. He said that about half of the guns with wearplates did not have ramrod channel runout, they actually were  Wearplates.

  Hungry Horse

[PPatch]

It happens to all of use at one time or another. I have a repair to do on a gun I am working on - same problem, the RR hole coming very close to the belly of the rifle and when I went to inlet the front of the trigger guard almost immediately the RR holw was exposed.

My plan is to install, glue in, a length of maple by carefully chiseling down into the forearm and belly almost to the barrel channel. Once the replacement wood is in I will redrill the RR hole, being sure to leverage the bit more toward the barrel channel. That done I will dress off the forearm to match the profile of the rest of the stock. Each piece of maple is different in the way it accepts stains and finishes, but not that different so my replacement block should reasonably match the surrounding wood. Chances are most folks won't ever know you did major surgery on your stock. Be sure to stain the replacement block and stock surrounding it before gluing in.

dave

[PPatch]

If you decide to fill it, and redrill it, you better prepare yourself for some serious disappointment. The dowel you glue in will present you with not only serious endgrain to drill through, but also whatever you use to glue it with will fight you as well. Go with a wear plate, even the most accomplished builders of their times have made guns that require a  Wearplate. They were so common that some gunsmiths added them to nearly every gun they built.
 A friend in Nevada had the opportunity to examine a group of Kentucky rifles that had been consumed in a house fire. He said that about half of the guns with wearplates did not have ramrod channel runout, they actually were  Wearplates.

  Hungry Horse

One is always drilling into end grain when drilling for a ramrod hole? Right? That is one reason the long bits love to wander off. that said, I do not recommend a dowl either.

dave

[Garytomb]

Thanks for the great feedback, think I'll go with the wear plate !

I'm fairly new to the forum and really appreciate you all taking your time to respond.

[Old Ford2]

Hi Gary,
Welcome to this great forum.
There is great talent here, and they are always willing to help.
Don't fret about your blow through...........heck some of my guns look like an old inner tube that was run bare down a gravel road.
I couldn't build with out lots of wood glue & JB Weld.
Good luck on your building.
Good advice: Always check here before you start, the guys/gals will guide you through it.
All the best!
Fred

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I would use a scraper made from a piece of undersized steel rod.  Upset the end to form a hook that cuts/scrapes on the back stroke, and put a small bend in the rod so that the hook engages the wood once pushed to the bottom of the hole.  Move the hole up to give you abut 3/32" - 1/8" of wood along the bottom of your forestock.  Then patch the thin wood under the hole with a brass/silver/copper/gold plate.  I suspect we've all been here...I certainly have.

[Stophel]

Make a rod from the same type of wood as the stock, if there's a risk of it showing through when final shaping.  Fit it into the hole so it is somewhat snug, but definitely not tight.  Drill a few air relief holes down from the barrel channel to let air and glue out.  Apply Titebond II or III glue, and drive the rod in all the way (the glue will swell it all up, which is why it can't be a very tight fit).  Once it is all dry, you can either try drilling again, or cut the ramrod hole down from inside the barrel channel.

If you drill again, drill a few witness holes down from inside the barrel channel.  Calculate, and measure VERY carefully precisely where the ramrod hole should be.  Drill about an inch and check.  Drill about two or three inches and check.  I find that if the rod is going to be off, it's going to go off quick and within the first three inches, I know if it's straight or not, and then I can correct it before it gets too out of hand.

To cut down from the barrel channel is not too difficult.  Basically, rout it out the way some precarve stocks used to be.  Drill it out with a series of holes almost all the way (when doing this, I still like to normally drill the first  inch or so, and the last couple of inches or so.  I don't like cutting down through the barrel channel very close to the breech).  Clean it up and fit the rod in to proper depth with gouges and round files, etc.  When that is done, then a piece of wood can be fitted to fill in the slot between the barrel and the rod.  Fit it pretty snugly (with plenty of extra wood on top to provide you a handle which will be cut off later).  Wax up a ramrod or a steel rod and put it in the hole, and apply glue to the sides of the filler piece and stock and press in the filler on top of the rod.  Tap it in so it is snug on top of the rod, but not tight, so you can still get the rod back out.  Let that dry then drill the last bit of rod hole all the way to the breech.  Finally, cut down the extra wood to bottom back out the barrel channel.    That may sound super complicated, but it's not.  Sometimes (often) I just absolutely cannot get a rod hole to drill straight, and this is the only way I can do it.

The finished product:

[David Price]

Gary,

Quite a few years ago I repaired a stock for some one that was about to throw his stock away because the rod chanel came out the bottom, as yours did.  I fixed it for him and it was almost invisible.

First thing I did was put it in the milling machine and ran an end mill down into the barrel chanel, through the ram rod hole and out the bottom ot the belly. Yes out through the bottom of the belly !!!    I ran the slot just under the front of the trigger guard, and all the way back to the tab on the lower thimble.  I then glued a block of maple in the slot and let it dry.  Next I cut another slot into the new piece of wood that was in the barrel channel, but only deep enough for the loading stick to be where it should be.  I then placed a tappered metal rod, well waxed, into the ram rod hole and epoxied the hole level with the bottom of the barrel channel.  The rod was tappered so it came out easily.  I then glass bedded the whole barrel.  The belley of the rifle was sanded to match the original shape.  When it was fifnished there was no end grain wood showing.  It really was a fun project but you need a milling machine to do it.  I wished that I had taken some pictures of it .  I hope I have explaned it clear enough.

David Price

[far55]

If you want to see some examples,scroll down on this site to the section of upper Susquehanna builders for some ideas. A lot of the guns are little later than your project gun, but you will see a lot of wear plates on the guns from this area. I recently bought a stock that had the same issue because of a bad bandsaw cut and plan to glue a piece of the extra stock wood on the bottom and then add a wear plate if the patch is not invisible.  Roland

[Goo]

Doesn't this happen in part due to the use of a twist drill instead of using one of those straight shank deep hole drills for ram rod holes and barrel bores ?

[rich pierce]

Doesn't this happen in part due to the use of a twist drill instead of using one of those straight shank deep hole drills for ram rod holes and barrel bores ?

In part, yes. I think layout of the ramrod groove is always challenging when cut by hand. Then any tendency to push the drill or rush versus letting it cut bit by bit can lead to problems. I tried to get cute once and angle the hole toward the sideplate. It was hard to find the web thickness by drilling a tiny hole in the bottom flat of the barrel channel - cause that’s not where the hole was!

[WadePatton]

Thanks for the great feedback, think I'll go with the wear plate !

I'm fairly new to the forum and really appreciate you all taking your time to respond.

A well-done wear plate adds flavor to any gun-and some really dig it.

[Long John]

Gary,

If I have read this string right you have a ram rod hole exiting the bottom of the stock just forward of the trigger guard.

That happened to me once.  This is how I fixed it.

I cut a piece of maple board that had curl that closely matched the curl on the stock.  It was about 13/16ths of an inch wide, 1/4th inch thick and about 6 inches long - because the ramrod exited about 2 inches in front of the TG.  I carefully let this piece of maple into the bottom of the stock just like I would do for a metal inlay, making sure that the sides of the inlet piece of wood had about 5 degree draft, especially on the two ends.  As I let the piece in I broke into the ram rod hole.  No problem.  I just let the piece in.  Then I took the piece out and use a narrow 1/4" inch gouge to recut the ramrod hole higher in the stock, high enough to come up to the bottoms of the barrel pin lugs.  In doing so I just remade the ram rod hole as a groove the entire length of the rectangular hole I made to receive my patch.  Then I glued the patch in with Tite-Bond wood glue.  After letting the glue cure for a couple of days I slowly re-drilled the ramrod hole.  Now the drill followed the hole created by the groove and the patch.  After shaping the stock I cut incised carving lines on all 4 glue lines and then added some decorative scroll carving inside the outlines.

The judges at Dixons never noticed what I had done.  The owner of the gun has been shooting and hunting with it for over 25 years.

It worked for me.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

[Stophel]

Doesn't this happen in part due to the use of a twist drill instead of using one of those straight shank deep hole drills for ram rod holes and barrel bores ?

For my personal answer to this question, I offer an emphatic "NO".  My straight single flute drill is a devil at trying to get to start straight.  IF I can get it started straight, it will then generally continue to cut straight... It's all about how the hole starts.  If it's off when you start, it will be even worse by the time you get to the bottom.  Check it the first two or three inches at most to see if it's going good.  If it's off, it's a lot easier to correct than a full-depth screwed up hole.

I've never been the world's greatest ramrod hole driller... hence my cutting down from the barrel channel...

For a while I was using a 5/16" center point bit (with a 3/8" groove) and I found that center point made it easier to get it going straight.  Easier, but still no guarantees.  After the hole was drilled, I would ream it out with a square tapered reamer that I made (5/16" at the bottom, 3/8" at the entrance), which worked shockingly well, but it's kind of a pain.

[Dphariss]

I have never had a gun drill run off from where it was aimed.  Nor had a problem with starting. On full stock long guns I use 2 wood blocks with grooves clamped to the stock to hold the drill in the rod groove with just enough clearance to run without much friction. But if the groove is not pointed where the rod hole is intended to be there WILL be issues. If its runs up toward the barrel the drill will run there. Tapered 1/2 stock barrels using the rib and rod pipes as a guide thus require the barrel to be shimmed at the breech to keep the drill from running low in the stock. These can be harder to start but I cut a divot with a gouge to keep it from chattering and flexing at the start. Gun drill will only drill 1/2" or so before clogging so the drill will be with drawn many times during the process. Twist drills are notorious for running off if they even encounter a hard spot in the stock. They are not stiff enough and the bit will flex and cut on the side. The drill shank should be the same size as the drill diameter. I make my own drills from cold rolled rod and will simply caseharden the cutting edge. If the shank is too tight in the hole then a slight burr can be burnished on the flute edge to slightly enlarge the hole.
I laid out the groove and drilled this one at an angle to give mainspring clearance




Dan

[jerrywh]

I never had a drill come out the bottom of the stock. They go where you aim them.  However, I had one come out in the barrel channel. I have glued in a dowel and re drilled the hole and it worked. If you glue in a dowel don't use a hard wood dowel. The dowels that hardware stores sell are usually not hard wood like hickory.  Like Phariss, I make my own drills. I don't like the looks of so called wear plates. Everybody knows why they are there.

[flehto]

When I started my first build from a blank {1977}, I read every thing I could about RR drills and was confused after all the reading. So....depended on my experience in  the tool shop where I did a lot of drilling and milling.

Came to the conclusion that a flat bottom drill was the answer. .....and drilled my first RR hole which came out where expected. Figuring out the direction of the RR groove w/  a swamped bbl  requires some thought.

When a RR hole goes askew, the main reasons would be a RR groove that's pointing in the wrong direction, a bad start w/ the drill, a dull or wrongly sharpened drill  and not clearing the chips often enough. The drill point and type of drill varies w/ the makers but my choice is a flat bottom point which is more easily sharpened and which cuts independently of grain and variations in hardness...something like an endmill.

Have sharpened a lot of drills by hand and eyeball and they easily drilled proper holes, but here's an actual instance where a drill wasn't sharpened correctly. Bought a trailer hitch and installation was free so I  let them do it. In addition to the frame bolts 2 bolts went into the bumper and he started to drill those first. He leaned hard on the hole shooter and remarked that bumper steel was always pretty hard which was an excuse for a poorly sharpened driil which was not cuttingl. I asked him If I could sharpen the drill  and after sharpening, the drill went through the bumper like it was butter. Here was a company that had installers who didn't know how to properly sharpen a drill.....and it cost them a lot of money.

After the 4th LR, I figured that I knew how to do the bbl and RR work so started sending the bbls and blanks to Fred Miller and was always satisfied w/ his work. Later on I went  East and visited Fred Miller and while going through his shop, looked at the drills points he used.....and they were all flat bottoms. That kinda reaffirmed that my choice had been correct.......Sorry for the long post......Fred

[Herb]

Some rifles had wear plates added as design features, such as two from western Pennsylvania that I copied, shown here.  First on the left is one of my 25 or 30 Hawkens I've built, but none with a wear plate that I can remember.  Second is a GRRW Trade rifle I built in their shop in 1978, in a class taught by Production Manager Greg Roberts.  He drilled the ramrod hole and the hole came out the bottom of the stock.  Thus my  genuine repair.  I don't remember what the third is.  The fourth is my very close copy of a Jacob Wigle rifle (Westmoreland County, PA).    I only know of three of his rifles and all were built with wear plates as part of the decoration.  The fifth is my close copy of a Thomas Oldham rifle (Bedford County) with the wear plate as a design feature.  Far right is my copy of a Henry Albright rifle where I needed to add the wear plate because of a cracked stock.