Author Topic: Our Germanic Heritage  (Read 7973 times)

Offline Dave B

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Our Germanic Heritage
« on: May 03, 2009, 10:52:36 PM »
I picked up a nice Germanic styled half stocked fowler this weekend.
I love the architecture of this piece. It has on closer inspection the insice out line for carving that was never executed. Only in a couple areas was the carving relieved.
It is .75 cal, barrel length 34-1/2", breach is a massive 1-5/16" The butt plate is 2 1/8"wide by 4 15/16" tall.












« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 07:22:45 AM by Dave B »
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Stophel

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 04:55:04 AM »
Very interesting gun!

Extremely unusual buttplate!

I'd say that the carving has all been sanded down.
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 06:02:59 AM »
Yup, someone in their wisdom wanted to make it look nicer, so they refinished it and sanded off the carving.  I've seen it lots on good doubles that have had their chequering sanded away.  Still an interesting piece.
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Offline Brian

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 06:43:41 AM »
Aarrgghhhhh! Who would do that?????????   ???
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 06:47:04 AM »
Unfortunately, I've seen plenty of nice old guns, that have been sanded down to where only traces of carving remain.

When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 02:56:57 PM »
Great old gun, sanded or not!
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2009, 07:19:06 PM »
Wonder if this gun couldn't have strong American associations? Are there any barrel proofs or other E markings on wood or metal? The incised carving looks more like it was added later than having been sanded down. The swivel hole looks like most early American guns rather than those of Europe where they often used loops or screws, usually in the bottom of the butt stock. They seemed to prefer longer slings.
Looks like it probably was full stocked originally and may have had a longer barrel. The cap guard is an E feature, but I have seen a Nicholas Hawk percussion swivel breech rifle which had those same type guards mounted on the bosses, using the original feather springs.
Random thoughts on looking at this.
Dick

Offline G-Man

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 08:02:27 PM »
There are a number of features that would look perfectly at home on an early American longrifle, aren't there? For example, the shape of the sideplate, the way the triggerguard spur points down and recurves forward a little, and the undercut extended line to the rear of the cheek piece are elements that crop up on some early Virgnia guns. 

Guy
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 08:03:44 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Stophel

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 08:07:38 PM »
I see no reason to think anything other than Germany for this gun.  The conversion with the pistonschuetz is very European.  It is not the least bit uncommon to see sling swivels on the triggerguard on German guns.

VERY often, German guns have NO markings on the barrel at all.  There were no real proof laws, and only SOME makers used a maker's stamp.  I have 4 old German guns here with no markings on the barrels whatsoever.

I'm thinking that the gun is in the neighborhood of 1770.   ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Stophel

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2009, 08:13:11 PM »
Actually, the first thing I thought of when I saw that trigger guard was a gun that is in RCA, don't remember the number, but it is listed with the "southern" guns, that looks like a poor restock of a Berks county gun.  If I'm thinkin' correctly, it has a guard that looks rather like this one.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2009, 08:39:42 PM »
I see no reason to think anything other than Germany for this gun.  The conversion with the pistonschuetz is very European.  It is not the least bit uncommon to see sling swivels on the triggerguard on German guns.

VERY often, German guns have NO markings on the barrel at all.  There were no real proof laws, and only SOME makers used a maker's stamp.  I have 4 old German guns here with no markings on the barrels whatsoever.

I'm thinking that the gun is in the neighborhood of 1770.   ;)
DITTO
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2009, 08:50:09 PM »
Wonder if this gun couldn't have strong American associations? Are there any barrel proofs or other E markings on wood or metal? The incised carving looks more like it was added later than having been sanded down. The swivel hole looks like most early American guns rather than those of Europe where they often used loops or screws, usually in the bottom of the butt stock. They seemed to prefer longer slings.
Looks like it probably was full stocked originally and may have had a longer barrel. The cap guard is an E feature, but I have seen a Nicholas Hawk percussion swivel breech rifle which had those same type guards mounted on the bosses, using the original feather springs.
Random thoughts on looking at this.
Dick

Don't think there is much chance the incised cheek carving was added later.  Think it is simply the remnents of stamped in relief carving.  With this practice it's standard procedure to stamp in slightly deeper than the background.  If you look nearer the cheek piece you can also see areas where a little relief remains.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2009, 08:59:36 PM »
Of course, to see stylistic connections between a gun like this and early American guns is only natural.

 ;)
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Dave B

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2009, 05:29:41 AM »
So what I wonder is when the wood sample comes back and its american walnut?
But that in of it self is not a guarantee of an American provanace due to the exportation of hard woods to the otherside of the Atlantic for use in wood related industries.There are no marks on any thing (stock lock or barrel) that give an indication as to who made this piece. I tend to agree that it is a Germanic piece. I pulled the barrel out last night and the actual measure is one and three eights inches at the breach. They flattend off the lock side flat to keep the profile slimer at the bolster. The butt stock does have a puddy filled area where you would find a button type sling screw attached Half way between the tail of the trigger guard and the toe of the piece.  The conversion of the lock wiht the over the nipple frizzen safety is primarily a" E" thing is it not? I have not gotten out my copy of the RCA I to look at the early rifles but I thought it looked right down their line.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2009, 05:27:41 PM »
Lock could be earlier than 1770.  Conversion to percussion was almost certainly done in Europe.
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jwh1947

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Re: Our Germanic Heritage
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2009, 07:31:26 PM »
Yes, European lock work, beyond a reasonable doubt.  Seen similar in The Hague, Amsterdam, and Prague.  Darn good gun.  JWH