Why I hate precarves

[Eric Krewson]

The lock mortise is rough cut and way undersized for the lock, it is just cut very low.

I checked the web and found it is 3/16 at the muzzle and a little over 5/16 at the breech. I will have a little room to go down with the barrel.

[Telgan]

Just an odd ball thought - But what about using a larger lock like a Chambers early Ketland. It wouldn't be totally out of character for the kit and might take up the gap. You'd have to do some figuring to see if the mortise could be modified to work.  More money out the door though. You could use the Siler on a future project.

[Martin S.]

Hide glue.

It does not show as much as titebond type glues.

Titebond makes a hide glue, but Old Brown Glue is best.

[redheart]

A local maker here,Tom Nixon said he "liked"precarves because all the'mistakes
that were possible were already there and saved him a lot of trouble.

Bob Roller

I love it Bob!
This comment says it all!
I always think that I'm so smart when I get a deal on a pre-carve and it always costs me more than making it from a blank!

[Birddog6]

Copy some photos of dif locks from Track of the Wolf catalog & lay over the inlet & see if it lines up &  covers better.
A Dale Johnson lock has a little more drop at the tail, possibly it will work. Or possibly
L&R  (cringe) plate will cover it, as it is a tad wider. A Jack Haug 1750 is a good 1/8” taller & May work.
Don’t assume the lock inlet is a Siler, as I have seen them cut for several dif. locks.

The key to getting a good precarve is never buy one sight unseen. When I buy one I lay
Every single part for that rifle up to that stock to insure it is cut correctly. Sloppy inletting
& over-inletting is a common occurance because people put up with it.  If Everyone sent
those stocks back that poor workmanship would cease.

[flehto]

I agree and won't "make do" w/ a bummed up precarve. ...did it once when the supplier gave me a big discount to avoid having the stock returned. Put a few hrs into the precarve and finally used it for firewood.

Bought a Hawken parts set from a well known supplier and found that the lock inlet was mislocated, so called and drove to the suppiier and he readily admitted the error but asked me what he should do.  Told him a new stock was req'd and he then showed me a precarve that was one grade less than what I had ordered and I found that the LOP was way too short. Seeing he was giving me a hard time while smiling, I  took up a hardened stance

Walked out w/ a newly profiled precarve which was his best grade of wood....he finally said good bye to a satisfied customer......Fred

[Jeff Durnell]

I think next time, I'll start from a plank. But right now I have my first gun ordered from Chambers, and I'm hopeful it's going to be right. But before I do any work on it, I'm going to ask a friend of mine who's made a bunch of guns to help give it a good going over. If it ain't right, it's going back.

[BillF/TRF]

I am working on a York County Pre-Carve from Jim Chambers and am very happy with it.  The inlets were all located correctly and were easily modified when I went with a double set trigger.  My only question was the forestock rails are not equal width but I think that will be easily solved when I finish taking down the wood to final form.

[Eric Krewson]

Forestock rails are not a problem unless you got one like I did on my last precarve that had almost none on one side and a 1/4" on the other.

[Daryl]

Earl MacFarlane, an old friend and competitive pistol shooter, used to say he didn't mind the pre-carves that were 90% inlet, it was the ones that were 110% inlet that gave him fits!

Earl MacFarlane is distantly related to Taylor and I on our Mother's Father's side of the family.
One of these days I am going to join Clan MacFarlane.
 
110% inlet  - THAT's a good one.

[J.E. Moore]

I traded into a pre carved J.P. Beck with a "B" weight barrel channel awhile back. I was thinking about trying to get a "C" weight worked into it. I don't think it would be enough change in the width to push the lock out of the side of the lock mortise too much. Have any of y'all ever attempted this before?
 

[Dphariss]

Would a bigger lock be a fix?

[David R. Pennington]

I have used boat builders glue. It is a two part resin and powder and is a dark color that is hard to see on stained maple. One goof up on a cherry stock looks like a typical bark inclusion.

[Frank]

The only pre-carve I ever use only has the buttstock shaped with barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled. Anything else is a pain in the butt to work with.

[hanshi]

I have a rifle from a well respected builder who will not build from a pre-carved stock.  He had too many problems such as you mention and started refusing to build these rifles for any customer.  He built from planks and never had any complaints after that time.

[Clark Badgett]

The only pre-carve I ever use only has the buttstock shaped with barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled. Anything else is a pain in the butt to work with.

That is the way I have ordered the current build.

[Craig Wilcox]

VERY new here on the Forum.  Most experience to date has been working on and building center fires, though my first rifle was (in 1960) an original 1863 Springfield.  And I do now have a yen to build a flintlock, so I am trying to read everything I can on the subject.
I find myself drawn to the style of Rupp, a Lehigh County builder, I think.  I like the sweep of the wrist and butt stock, and the ornamentation.
But, being 72, and with some upcoming cardiac re-plumbing, I can no longer start from a plank.  So, looking at "precarves"!  And reading here, do not want to come up with a lemon.  My idea is to get a stock with the barrel channel and the ramrod hole already done.  I have no problem with inletting the rest of the pieces.
So, from the guys and gals on the forum, where should I be looking for a suitable stock, with the barrel and ramrod channel already done?

[Craig Wilcox]

Almost forgot!  "Weldwood" is a two part (non-epoxy) waterproof glue for use on wood.  It is reddish in color, and would go with most maple that I have seen.  The secret, tho, is to make the joint so that it is almost impossible to see anyway.  I have used it on boats and airplanes (yep, we do have wooden airplanes) with great success.  Have not seen it for a while tho.

[L. Akers]

So, from the guys and gals on the forum, where should I be looking for a suitable stock, with the barrel and ramrod channel already done?

I can recommend Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply.

[Iktomi]

 I am in somewhat of the same frame of mind. I've settled on a path for my first longrifle, a Kibler kit, which is essentially a disassembled in-the-white rifle that needs only a few small details completed before assembly and finishing. This will be my route for my first longrifle, due to the fact that I have never even seen a real longrifle in the flesh, my only experience with traditional style muzzleloaders being Hawken-types. It would be helpful to have a more detailed perspective on architecture, proportions and general assembly before I take on a plank build. I'm not hesitant WRT my woodworking and metal working skills to scratch build, but I would like a better general perspective on what a longrifle is all about, what it is *supposed* to be. I DON'T want to get into a situation like Eric is dealing with. I can't abide having to fix someone else's mistakes. I'm perfectly capable of screwing something up all on my own, and if I have to fix something, I'd rather it be my own oopsie.

VERY new here on the Forum.  Most experience to date has been working on and building center fires, though my first rifle was (in 1960) an original 1863 Springfield.  And I do now have a yen to build a flintlock, so I am trying to read everything I can on the subject.
I find myself drawn to the style of Rupp, a Lehigh County builder, I think.  I like the sweep of the wrist and butt stock, and the ornamentation.
But, being 72, and with some upcoming cardiac re-plumbing, I can no longer start from a plank.  So, looking at "precarves"!  And reading here, do not want to come up with a lemon.  My idea is to get a stock with the barrel channel and the ramrod hole already done.  I have no problem with inletting the rest of the pieces.
So, from the guys and gals on the forum, where should I be looking for a suitable stock, with the barrel and ramrod channel already done?

[Craig Wilcox]

After looking at various suppliers, I decided on a Herman Rupp 1793 build, and talked extensively with Ryan and Terry Jo at Muzzleloader Builders Supply in Idaho.
Earlier this week, received lock, stock, and barrel from them, and am very pleased.  The basics of the barrel channel, ramrod hole and lock were done by Ryan, but plenty left to do on all three of these.
Went to the store to get a 5/16" dowel, to sand the ramrod hole to size, and for some reason, walked out with a 5/32" dowel!  Maybe I can glue two pieces together???  Nah, took Shop Dog Sunny with me today, and she made sure I got the right size.
BTW, when looking for a few nuts and bolts for another project at Lowe's, I spotted some drawers for science fair projects.  Looking inside, my eye was taken by 4" x 4" squares of brass, copper, and "tin" - just what I needed for practicing engraving.  So, beneficial side to getting the wrong thing yesterday.
That Jim Chambers L-19, "Dale Johnson" is really top notch!  Very impressed by the workmanship, and by the thoughts that lead mankind to come up with such a great mechanism when power tools were powered by a waterwheel, and candles were the source of light.

[Iktomi]

That Jim Chambers L-19, "Dale Johnson" is really top notch!  Very impressed by the workmanship, and by the thoughts that lead mankind to come up with such a great mechanism when power tools were powered by a waterwheel, and candles were the source of light.

 I'm in awe of what the old timer machinists, smiths, carpenters etc were able to accomplish with the tools and technology they had available. Real craftsmanship. Those old boys knew their bidness, that's for sure.

[Eric Krewson]

OK, I measured the web at the breech as I started down with the barrel, dang, it is 3/8" not 5/16 like I first thought.

If I lower the barrel 1/4" the pan will be sitting almost center of the flat like it is supposed to.

I am using permatex prussion blue for marking and found it works very well but this is super curly wood, very hard to scrape without chattering and splinters with even very sharp tools because the grain changes direction very quickly.

I was thinking about using a forstner bit to cut the bottom inlet flat to down to just above the desired 1/8" web and trimming up the rest of the wood. At the rate I am going now with just scraping and light chiseling it will take me a month to get the barrel down where it needs to be. I made an octagon scraper but this wood doesn't scrape worth a hoot.

Any suggestions for faster wood removal?

[Ian Pratt]

You're sure the barrel is seated in the channel? Saw one time where somebody had their ramrod hole marked on the side of the stock, then set the barrel in to mark down to the bottom of the channel. Turned out later the barrel wasn't hitting bottom.     

With the barrel seated in the current channel, does the top of the barrel sit 1/4" above the top of the wrist at the breech?

If not - meaning the top of the barrel is close to flush with the top of the wrist - dropping it in a quarter inch deeper could cause you some shaping problems depending on how much wood you have to work with.


Sometimes you have to attack a problem like this from multiple angles. A bigger lock as Dphariss mentioned may help a bit, and you may also need to do a little filling of the mortise and set the vent as low as possible. You may need to still drop the barrel a bit but much less than 1/4".

Direct drilling the vent and coning from the inside might also help as long as you don't try to get too close to the corner of the flat , and if you ever need to bush it you can make a solid liner and drill / cone the vent hole off center  - have to plan for it though, you don't want to get into the threads with the cone.


   

[greybeard]

So, from the guys and gals on the forum, where should I be looking for a suitable stock, with the barrel and ramrod channel already done?

I can recommend Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply.

I have had good success with Knob Mountain (David Keck) His brass is also very nice.
           Bob