Herman Rupp

[Eric Kettenburg]

Not to muddy things too much, but despite whatever the initials may be (I personally am sticking with AR), I've gone through some of my mountains of NH/Lehigh Co. papers and here's some interesting info:  Andrew Rupp and Herman Rupp were brothers, Herman being the elder by 2 years.  Both sons of George Rupp Sr. of Macungie.  They both took the oath of allegiance together in 1779 on Nov. 1.  Both were taxed in Macungie through the 1780s however at some point 1790-1800 Andrew moved up to Weisenberg Twp.  He was married to Ann Mary/Maria Hoffman, daughter of George Hoffman of Whitehall Twp.  Want to guess the name of one of Andrew's sons?  (Drum roll please)  Yes that's right, John Rupp.  The same John Rupp who was the gunsmith (younger John Rupp).    

[JTR]

Great information Eric, and thanks for taking the time to dig it up!

Tantalizing, to say the least.

Andrew, with gunsmith brother Herman on one end, then with gunsmith son John on the other.
But no documentation of Andrew being in the business, but here's a rifle with what looks like AR on the barrel!

I'm sure the owner is probably reading this, and I think it's time to search out the barrel signatures of Herman, John, and also Jacob Kuntz to see if there are any similarities to the gun here.

Like I said earlier, I have a pic of a Jacob Kuntz barrel JK, but don't have permission to post it,,, but it doesn't look like this sig.

And could it be that ol' Getz is slowly coming around to the wonders of Lehigh?!

John

[timM]

KRA Research Bulletin #14 by Sam Dyke 1968 mentions two John Rupp's.  One a brother of Herman Rupp and listed as a “Smid” in tax roles for a few years but not shown as a gunsmith.  Then the other John son of Andrew Rupp who also was a brother of Herman Rupp.

This John Rupp (born 1786 – died 1848) Mr. Dyke felt he was the prolific gunsmith who made guns marked “John Rupp” from 1812 to 1848.  He was shown to pay taxes during these years in Weisenberg Township as a gunsmith.

Could the barrel initials could be JAR.  Could this John have his fathers name as a middle name? 

Thank you JTR for making this gorgeous rifle available!  Respectfully, tim

[Karl Kunkel]

My opinion's not worth much, but I'm with Stoph.  I can see the german script  J K

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I will make a phone call to try to get permission to post an initial signature of JK.  Give me twelve hours.

[B Shipman]

Always consider the Jacob Kuntz and John Rupp were connected, as Kuntz likely made engraved mounts for Rupp. Why not then an Andrew Kuntz. Great discusion.

[louieparker]

Shumway owned this rifle  at one time , I think in the sixties. It was at a KRA meeting I think in the eighties  and not everyone  agreed  his with take on  the bbl mark either. The patch box release on this rifle is different to what I have seen on either john Or herman .Sometimes Kuntz used that same release as J&H .But i certainly have not seen them all . Can' remember about about the release the two top kuntz rifles.   Louie Parker

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Here's Jacob Kuntz initials on one of his great rifles.  I've seen his signature on other photos, and it seems being the artist he was, he was adventurous with his stylized lettering.

[JTR]

Many thanks Taylor, and here's the Rupp for comparison again.

Tom Currie,
The foearm plate and rear ramrod pipe are one piece on this rifle.
I'd guess as you do, that it's because of the thin wood under there, for some added protection.
But maybe because it's another area to decorate too, as some of these under forearm plates are pretty elaborate.

John

[timM]

Larger, less exposure and a bit of contrast. tim

[Tom Currie]

I still can't get past the second vertical line on the first initial to justify it as a J , thats the sticking point for me. My 2 bits. Excellent discussion.

[JTR]

I just don't see any basic similiarity between the two signatures. While there might be a few details that are similar, that's about it.
Also looking at pics of Hermans engraving and Kuntz engraving, shows some similarities, but not much, so I don't think Kuntz made the gun.
But the pictures of Herman Rupp engraving I've looked at doesn't look like the engraving on this gun enough to say that he actully made it either...
Still looking for a Herman Rupp signature.

John

[Eric Kettenburg]

It would be interesting to see a Herman Rupp signature, however I don't see how it would really matter; these letters (which I still think are AR - had to throw that in there!) are stylized "bookplate" initials and I would bet that they were not a typical part of the maker's 'everyday' signature.  They look like that from which they were copied!  BTW, the other rifle which is definitely by the same hand as this guy is pictured in KY rifles and pistols 1750-1850 in the Lehigh section in one of the small overall views (attributed to Herman Rupp of course, hence this attribution most likely) and also it there is a pic or two of it in Rob Gabel's Lehigh whitepaper.  It really does not look like Herman's hand.

[Stophel]

I still can't get past the second vertical line on the first initial to justify it as a J , thats the sticking point for me. My 2 bits. Excellent discussion.

What about the second identical vertical line in the last letter?

[JTR]

I think I'm with Eric on the letters; AR.
I can't explain the vertical line in the second letter, but it seems to more of a part of the R. Whereas the second vertical line in the first letter just doesn't look to be part of a J, at least to me.

I guess another way to go about this, and what I've been doing a little bit, is to forget the initials, and just compare the carving and other engraving details to know Kuntz and Herman and John Rupp rifles, and look for similarities, like little floop-de-dos, the way leaves or scrolls are cut, etc. Just like you would do to try to attribute an unsigned gun to a probable maker.

As Eric also points out, the guys usually signed there name (initials) the way they learned or copied from another source. And from what I've seen, for the most part, they signed it the same way from gun to gun. That's my reason for looking for an initialed Herman signature.

This gun has been around for a long time, and according to what Louie Parker wrote, seems to have been a Herman since 1960s. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it's fun speculating!

John 
   

[Stophel]

I think I'm with Eric on the letters; AR.
I can't explain the vertical line in the second letter, but it seems to more of a part of the R. Whereas the second vertical line in the first letter just doesn't look to be part of a J, at least to me.


John 
   

That's the whole point.  The lines aren't part of anything.

 

[Swampwalker]

Okay, a question about the rifle - is it possible that the lock in the rifle is not the original?  Obviously, it's an old lock, but the tail of the lock sits so far back on the panel it makes me wonder.  Has anybody had the lock out to check?

[Stophel]

I think that the wood is just worn around the lock.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I think that is another characteristic of this maker, whoever he is; if you look at the admittedly scant pictures of the 'other' one by the same guy, the lock panels are designed in the same fashion - long nose at the front, very close to the edges of the lockplate from the breech back.

[T*O*F]

It appears to me that the two vertical lines of the A have been engraved over something else.  If you look closely, you can see things that don't quite match up with them and appear older.  Or is it just the light playing tricks.

[Roger Fisher]

I being of sound mind and @!*% little knowledge of the old makers and their initials I will add that at first look and no bias it sure looks like A R to me!

Worth little if anything of course!

[Tom Currie]

Stoph, Based on your letter sheet, I get your point about JK if the vertical's don't mean anything. Any idea what they are there for ? guidelines ? gotta be some reason they are there.

[Stophel]

I don't know.  Same as the little extra swirly things and the little "tick marks"... Just for embellishment.

 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Just to try to add a little more food for thought, particularly about lock panel architecture of Kuntz rifles, I'm offering a few more pictures.  These two rifles are in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NY, and the photos themselves were taken by our own Acer Sack o' Rum (Tom Curran) on the occasion of his and Eric Von Aschwege's visit there to study them. They will demonstrate the similarity between the subject rifle and these two of known provenance, though that may not lead to any conclusions, of course.  Also, here's another Jacob Kuntz signature.  The "T" in Kuntz has been added later by someone who didn't want there to be any mistake about the rifles creator.  But you will be able to see some similarities in this signature, and the initials that I posted.  If it means anything, my rifle signature now bears little resemblance to that on rifles many score previous.






I might add, that these two rifles are pictured together in Steel Canvas, and the rifle in the fourth shot is also in the KRA's Collection of Articles book.  These two rifles played a huge part in the creation of my own version of a Kuntz rifle.  I wish to personally and publicly thank Tom, Eric, and the MET for their valuable contribution.

[Acer Saccharum]

Taylor, I am not sure if that 'T' is added later by someone else. I have seen a couple of other sign's that look the same...

Aye, Sir, Sac 'O' rum