English rifle circa 1820; correct metal finish

[Mike C]

I am working on a steel mounted late flint period English rifle. I have the metal polished to an 800 grit surface as per John Schippers' recommendation for engraving. Once engraved what would be a historically correct finish for the metal?
Mike C

[Goo]

Not an expert here but I think it most likely steel was bright when new and just aged naturally to brown over time and patina occurred with normal use.     This is part of the reason I don't use browning or Clorox or any of that kind of stuff finish it bright and allow the steel to do its thing over time.

[smylee grouch]

I'm going to guess blued.

[Joey R]

Mike,you and I know how to blue one.

[smart dog]

Hi,
The steel hardware likely would be rust blued after being polished. The barrel would probably be rust browned with a smooth polished surface like the blued hardware.

dave

[Marcruger]

In one of my books (Bivens I think) there is a reproduction of an original newspaper ad from around 1800.  It advertised "Metal bluing and browning".  If I recall correctly, it was a Southern coastal gunsmith, maybe Wilmington NC.  In England?  I am not sure, but obviously both processes were in use at the same time.  God Bless,  Marc

[smart dog]

Hi Marc,
Bluing and browning were readily offered because rust bluing was accomplished by just boiling the rust browned component in water.

dave

[jerrywh]

 I have never seen a English rifle or that period that wasn't browned. The brown was highly polished not dull at all. It is a trick to get that kind of brown look.  Look in the Manton book and the W.Keith Neal books.  Some French guns were rust blued but never have seen a English rifle that was rust blued.  Same goes for pistols of that period.  A lot of the Earlier pistols were fire blued. The only long guns that were blued were Indian trade guns. I have only seen a few hundred though.

[Daryl]

This is a nicely re-browned set of barrels from an English gun.

[smart dog]

Hi Jerry,
The bluing I am referring to is just rust browning boiled in water.  I have seen quite a few late flint British guns with the hardware done that way, however the barrels were usually left brown.  The universal feature is that the metal is highly polished before rusting and I am sure it required many coats thoroughly carded between coats.  I also have photos of some Manton and a Staudenmayer guns in which it appears the hardware was simply heat blued.  They don't look like case-hardening colors, just colors from tempering to blue.

dave 

[Turtle]

 I know this is sacrilege here, but the pedrosili mortermer production  English rifle has a beautiful shiny brown barrel.

[Daryl]

Hard carding between rusting coats is necessary, I think, to get a smooth shiny finish.

[jerrywh]

 This is off subject but I rust the barrels with LMF. I first polish to 1000 or 2000 grit. Then apply the solution I suspend them in a metal tank with about 1/2" of water in it and place a news paper over the top. I spray the news paper with water to dampen it. 
i never leave them in the tank for over 2 hours. If they don't look rusty by then I card them anyway with a .003 wire brush run at less than 1200 rpm.  This takes about 5 to 7 applications to come out as desired.
  I am pretty sure this is not how Daryl does it. I think I know that process.  It is a different process for Damascus barrels. They can either be done brown or black depending on the process.  Very nice barrels Daryl.  Lots of work HUH?
   I doubt if there has ever been a better authority than W.Keith Neal. I would refer you to his books. I noticed on different web sites many of the English guns from the early 19th century have been redone and I don't think they were done as original.  I think the barrels Daryl is showing were a later period gun probably around 1875 to 1910

[Justin Urbantas]

Would the same treatment be given to an 1820 fowler as well?

[jerrywh]

 Most and possibly all of the English rifles, fowlers and pistols of the early 1800s had a pattern and a finish that looked like these.  They were called stub twist. I have seen one or two exceptions to the pattern but the color was the same
   

[Pukka Bundook]

Jerry,

I'd say early 1800's not 1900's for those barrels.
after the  1830's/40's,  we see Damascus, two and three stripe coming to the fore.
By the late 1800's we see Whitworth fluid steel taking over. After maybe 1900, we don't see so  many Good Damascus barrels, and more cheap imports.

Stub twist was used d for most of the 18th and first half  the 19th century.

Best,

Richard.

[jerrywh]

 Richard. You are correct. I will change my post to correct it.

[Mike C]

A lot of great information there. Many of the photos of originals I have seen on auction house websites show browned barrels, but not chocolate brown. Rather a much lighter shade. Locks and other furniture looked like it could have started life with a French gray finish. A polished light brown on everything would certainly look good.
Thanks to all for your valuable knowledge.
Mike C

[jerrywh]

 Mike the gray you see is most likely old casehardening, even on the butt plates and triggerguards

[Pukka Bundook]

Mike C,

Bear in mind the different mind set regarding barrels on each side of the big pond;

Over there, it is very normal to re-brown barrels, as it is often regarded as a shame if the beautiful twist doesn't show.
Over on this side, there is much more leave them be ..it's antique , don't touch it kind of thing.

Re-browning over there is at times lead by fashion.....A barrel can look attractive but be browned to a different colour to originals.
Myself, I do like the "toffee" colours, but do not think these are the original colours, so we can be Possibly lead down the garden path at times.
I have some I think are the original brown, and these are a darker somewhat "harder" colour.

Below, two re-browns;




Last photo, I Think it may be original brown on a Boss.  (1837)
Still a nice "brown" brown...

[Mike C]

A question for Jerry; if the furniture was case hardened would it have also been browned? How much rust resistance does case hardening provide?
Mike C

[smart dog]

Hi Mike,
Case hardened steel is hard to brown because the hardened surface resists rust. Usually, the part is left with the case colors showing.  The colors are not really durable and will fade over time, however, the part will resist rust because of the hardened surface. You can see the cased colors in the pistols below.



dave

[James Rogers]

Dave, I remember those pistols! Nice seeing them again.  IIRC they are black walnut faded out with lemon yellow dye? Beautiful.

[Justin Urbantas]

Where did you find the locks for those pistols, Dave?

[jerrywh]

A question for Jerry; if the furniture was case hardened would it have also been browned? How much rust resistance does case hardening provide?
Mike C

 Mike . Casehardening does not brown very well but it can be browned with some difficulty.  I don't think most of the original locks and other fittings were browned but some were. If you look on Drakes web site you will see most of the guns of that period have silvery looking mounts. I believe these are parts that the case colors have worn off of.  Also some of the barrels appear to be black or dark gray but this is the effect of the photography. If you look at the same barrels in other photographs they show their true brown colors. Also the breach plugs are case hardened.  I have a catalog from the W.Keith Neal auction. That is a super good reference for what you want. Unfortunately those catalogs are very rare and cost about $500.00 if you can find one.
  The locks on Dave's pistols look like a Blackley and son product.