The feel of tools....

[Kentucky Jeff]

My gun building attempts have been interrupted over the course of my life by career and circumstance.   Still I have managed to crank out a kit gun or two every year for the last couple of years.  Roughly three years ago I decided to make a more serious study of rifle building...going to Dixons for three years in a row, taking some courses in engraving and carving at Conner Prairie etc.    I was thankful for the knowledge and generosity of nearly everyone I have met in this hobby...its really something you can take to any level you want and never want for something new to learn!

Still, as John Schippers, tells you in his engraving class--there isn't much to this that requires true artistic talent.  For the most part we are copying or at the very least creatively interpreting what someone has done before us.  His point was that he can take most anyone who has the desire and discipline to learn and turn them into a very good engraver.  After all--gun bulding, engraving, lockmaking were not considered artistic endeavors but skilled trades in the 18th century.  Its not something that takes talent--Yes, it takes repetition, muscle memory, and experience/feel.    But true artistic talent is not required.   Of course we think its artistic talent as we are amazed that someone could turn out something so stunningly beautiful with their own hands.  But in the end Schipper's is correct.  These people who make these beautiful things are not good at what they do because they possess artistic talent but because they have done it 200, 400, 1,000 times before...  I have no doubt most everyone could make longrifles of the same quality as any of the famous contemporary builders--especially if they had made the same rifle 200 times before! 

I lost my job last month after ten years with my former employer.  They changed strategic direction amid the current downturn and eliminated my entire division.  They were very good to me financially and I have no worries in that regard for quite some time.  I also have already had a couple of interviews for a similar position with other companies.  Professionally, mine is a world of suits and finance,  travel and blackberries and keyboards.   I like my work, I'm good at what I do and it has created an income and lifestyle I never dreamed I would enjoy.  But after a couple of weeks off I am getting somewhat tired of fixing stuff around the house and packing away winter clothes etc...  I'm ready to get back into the game.

   With all this extra time on my hands I am naturally drawn back to the bench.  With everything crumbling for my company I had redoubled my efforts at work over the last year or so and had spent almost no time at my bench and made no progress on any gun building project.  So when I got laid off I started back to the bench with a vengeance.  At first it seemed like I was all thumbs.  My file cuts were clumsy and it seemed like my files didn't cut but clogged.  I couldn't get the edge on my chisel I needed.   Things didn't hold when I clamped them in the vice.  The adjustable light always seems to be adjusted wrong.   What had happened was I lost my sea legs!   

   Today, I was doing some final finishing on a NW trade gun barrel and it started to come back.  I could feel the file cut in that old familiar way.  I finally got the shape I needed from the front sight after I had filed it down during sighting in.  I fire blued all the screws and didn't overheat any of them...  I'm getting the "feel" back.   My fingers are doing my bidding again... 

   I find I have missed the feel of my tools--perhaps they provide me a grounding in matter that I lack in my intangible professional world.   Things are coming together again.   I no longer feel clumsy in my shop.  I have confidence in my hands again. 
With my luck I'll get another job before I make any progress on that New England Fowler....

[P.Bigham]

Jeff  I hope the best for you in finding a knew Job. I agree to a extend about the artistic ability in Recreating the LongRifle. Some pick it up faster than others and some seem to have a natural ability, that just seems to be  a God given talent. I also know some work at It much more than others and the results are shown.

[Long John]

Jeff,

Best Wishes on finding a job.  I was in that position many years ago and just invented my own - I started a one-person consulting company and I have never been busier.  And I know what you mean about work getting in the way of "other" things.  I used to be able to take castings etc. in my bags and work on the polishing in hotel rooms at night, but the TSA makes that REAL difficult now-a-days.

I know what you mean about rifle building - it is my link to sanity.  I only average one scratch-built gun per year or year and a half; my current build will NOT be ready for the fair but I will be there anyway.

Best Regards,

JMC

[Acer Saccharum]

I think you'll find all levels of artists and artisans involved in this gun building. As you said, a copyist can make a perfectly beautiful Kentucky. They don't need to be an artist, just a good replicator. But they are copying someone else's work...so who made the first beautiful original? With nothing to copy, the first man had to be an artist.

All down through the ages, skills and styles get passed down, improved upon, lost, re-invented etc.  But somewhere along the line, the artist will take all these influences and put them together in new ways. This is outside the realm of the copyist.

So, Jeff, while your statement holds true for many people, it does not hold for everyone. Oerter, and Kuntz are men who come to mind. Their character can be seen in their work. The guns are almost alive. When a copy is made of their work, you still see some of their soul, but it's watered down, especially if the copyist is not of the same mind as the original creator. I am talking not simply technical, but of spirit of the object.

I am not sure where I am going with this discussion, but when I woke up in the night, this thread of yours came to mind. So this is just a beginning.

Acer

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I know what Tom is talking about here.  I for one do not have the skill to replicate the flavour of any particular previous work.  I can approach it, but there is always something missing; something that sets the "master's" work apart and is certainly what I'm aiming for, but never quite manage.  And that's why I keep trying.  I think the only rifle I've ever made that was right out of my own head, was one of the very first I made, back in the early 70's.  And it came out of my imagination - what I thought a Kentucky rifle should look like based on the few pictures I'd seen and the parts I was able to cobble together.  I had the occasion to re-build the rifle years later - got rid of the T/C Seneca percussion lock and the Bedford Co. guard that was just wrong.  Today the rifle is far more pleasing to my eye, and to the owner too, but it's sure not a Hershel House rifle, or an Ian Pratt!  I have nothing but huge respect for those few who step outside the box and come up with authentic new rifles.

[smart dog]

Jeff,
You raise a question that is perpetually discussed and debated, particularly when people compare decorative arts to the "fine" arts (painting, sculpture, etc). I think Acer is basically correct.  The vast majority of gun makers are tradesmen and craftsmen, not artists.  However, there are a few who are original decorative artists. That was true for the historical makers as well.  A look at the book on Jaeger rifles imported by Jim and Barbie Chambers clearly shows some of those differences.  In my opinion, many of those guns show the talents of great craftsmen who were not artists. A few really seem to fit together and show evidence of the decoration fitting and complementing the lines and flow of the whole gun. I am fortunate to have several good artists as friends. One, who was trained in several art schools says his teachers always emphasized that students learn craft first and then the art will (may) follow. By learning the skills you develop the means to express what artistic talents you have.  It doesn't work very well in reverse.  So I guess most of us seek to develop and hone our skills so that on occasion, we may produce something that goes beyond simply copying a pattern and sticking to a formula. 

dave   

[Kentucky Jeff]

Well fellas, like I said, YOU may not be able to create a one off of a given rifle or style or maker...  But make that gun 100 times, 200 times and I bet you could! 

Allen Martin will tell you the same thing!


I talked with Hershel House about this topic at Conner Prairie last year while he was beating out a knife in a forge and basically told me the same thing...  Said its no trick or magic involved in turning out a longrifle after you've done over 400...studied the subject...restored and or held thousands of originals...

So there's what a couple of people who are clearly masters of the medium say about it.


If you look at many of the european guns they were built by guilds of craftsman not a single smith.  There were people who made the locks and that's all they did!  There were engravers--again--all they did!   So while many of the European guns look fabulous--and are--there is often more than a few craftsmen involved in that creation.

Of course the way we all approach this thing is different...its what makes it an interesting horse race.

[J.D.]

I suspect that Jeff, John Schippers, and the others are correct. The latest research on learning suggests that anyone, regardless of a student's natural intelligence, with enough diligence and effort can learn to do anything that anyone else has learned. Many will have to work harder, longer, than the very talented. And while the work of the very talented may exceed the work of the less talented, diligent student, the work of the more diligent can, and often will surpass the less diligent, more talented worker/student.

Like Jeff said, after making 300-400 items, the work almost becomes second nature. Kinda like driving a car. No one really thinks about doing it. You just do it.

[NSBrown]

I'll add my two cents in with Acer, Taylor and Dave: there are both craftsmen and artisans in gunbuilding today; just as there were both among the original builders. I see contemporary guns today that are produced by makers with building skills that surpass many of the original builders. But some of these skillfully built guns lack the "soul" or "personality" of some less skillfully build rifles...either original or contemporary. Other times I see a well-made gun that may even be relatively simplistic that absolutely "sings" to me. This is when craftsmanship transends into artistry.

[Acer Saccharum]

I cannot agree that doing something 400 times guarantees that the product will be good. It depends where your natural interests lie. If you are mechanically inclined, the mechanism can evolve to the point of perfection. If you do not have an artistic bent, the 400th gun may not look much better than the 3rd. It will probably be made better, but no guarantees.

Jeff, when A Martin is mentioned, you bring up someone who is an artist, he has the touch. Hershel does too. EK, and Pratt. I don't know Hershel, but I know Martin. He is being humble, and also he is being supportive and encouraging.

They might tell you that anyone can do it, but I beg to differ. If you think by mere repetition you'll get there, you are sorely mistaken. Something else has to happen. You must get in tune with your soul, let the materials and tools speak while 'in the mode' of building. A conversation, a collaboration between yourself, the idea, and the materials needs to happen before the object will have a life of its own. This can happen all by itself when you are simply working along, maybe on gun number 276. Don't think you have control over this. But sometimes everything comes together in just the right way. If that happens, consider yourself blessed. Then the next gun, nothing seems to work.

To me, the Holy Grail of all art, is to make a piece that has soul, the very object is vibrating with character, the hand of the artist can be seen, the maker's intent, THAT (in my 'umble opinion) is what makes a great gun, a great car, a great painting.

I'm just getting warmed up, so, come on, y'all. Bring it on. 

Acer

[Kentucky Jeff]

Tom,
   How many guns have you made?

[Acer Saccharum]

About twenty five or thirty.

[northmn]

I tend to agree somewhat with Acer in that the "artistic" talent is both that of an inherent ability as well as training.  One thing to note about the "masters' is that we can pretty much recognize their work in similarities which brings up repitition.  The "schools" are another area where repitition means faster production.  I point out the old reliable management "learning curve".  Where learning excelerates very quicky over time and then flattens out.  Employees  hit a performance plateau where experience may not be as important.  Maybe after 5 years, 10 years etc.  As to engraving and carving instead of lacking the talents, I prefer to think I can but would rather not.  Could I, if I appled my efforts to that aspect of the building, become as accomplished as some I have seen like Acer or Jerry.  !@*%&@ if I know but I doubt it.  Part of doing something well is enjoyment.  They find a great deal of enjoyment in that aspect of building.  Mine tends to be in other areas.  Currently I am building a Tennessee rifle and plan on making all the parts.  I just finished making a flintlock somoothbore for less than $100 cash outlay.  None will win at Dixon's but they were fun.  My lack of artistic ability comes from both lack of skill and lack of interest.  I do admire their work, but am not as compelled to master it as I could be.  I admire the lines of a nice Tennessee, and sometimes find a highly inlayed, carved and engraved rifle gaudy (some are very beautiful).  I feel that this perspective is shared by others and is why I used myself as an example. 

DP 

[Acer Saccharum]

I think everyone has talent, and possibly everyone can be an artist, in some way.

We often have mental blocks that we learned at an early age, or just didn't get the encouragement we needed at the right time. That's life. But if you feel the attraction to the art of the long rifle, it means at the very least, that you can appreciate the art that goes into them. It's possible, hidden behind some long unopened door, lies a talent you never knew you had.

If you have a passion for the longrifle, you have got your foot in the door. Passion and hard work can make up for so-called 'natural ability'. Developing your artistic side is something that takes time and dedication to develop. It's akin to learning a second language. With use, you slowly improve.  When not used, is slowly forgotten.

So when we talk about the 300th rifle, we may, upon looking back, be able to say that we have indeed developed our artistic side. It's a mistake to sit there wondering WHEN is it going to happen? Best thing is to go at the work,and see where it goes. Study and get training in areas you want to improve upon or develop.

I am not sure how my writing is coming across, but my hope is that you can at least understand what I am trying to say. This all my opinion, tho' it may come across as me spouting 'fact'....if you find me abrasive or strong minded about this, it's because I feel very passionate about this subject. No intention of offending or turning anyone off.

Warmest regards,

Acer

[T*O*F]

Passion and hard work can make up for so-called 'natural ability'.

Not always.  Over my 30 years in the automotive business, I had untold numbers of apprentices who had both but just couldn't cut it.  Perhaps because of those mental blocks you spoke of, or just because they didn't have it.  They are the ones that ended up working at Sears or Meineke, etc. and after many years are still making the mistakes they couldn't get past.

....if you find me abrasive or strongminded about this, it's because I feel very passionate about this subject. No intention of offending or turning anyone off.

Perhaps you'll remember that in the future.......it works both ways.

[Acer Saccharum]

Dave, I understand you on both accounts.

In the first case, I said "can" not 'will always'. It' would be misleading to tell someone that a certain formula like that will yield consistent results.

On second:  My disclaimer is an attempt to say this is what has worked for me, not trying to shove it down anyone's throat.

Also, Dave, as time goes by, we all get to know one another a little better, we get to see what we are made of, thought by thought. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Back engraving today, first sketching, then practice cutting my designs. They look ok on paper, and look better in steel, for some reason. It's that 'feel' that I like to get in the groove before starting a major or important project. Once I get settled into the tools and materials, the work can flow. The practice reduces the 'fear factor' of messing up the good workpiece.

Acer

[T*O*F]

Back engraving today, first sketching, then practice cutting my designs.

I just got my Lindsay templates in this week and chomping at the bit to try them out.  I got 4 different profiles.  The first snag is all my bits are 1/8" and the templates take 3/32nds.  PITA.  Either I have to futz around grinding them down or order new ones 

Probably the latter as I just got home with 800 sq ft of Pergo and ceramic tile and a new sliding glass door.  That's gonna take a while and use some tools that I haven't "felt" in a while.  Also, gotta thank Longknife for buying my rifling bench as I've got a new Ingersol Rand air compressor waiting to be hooked up to run the umpteen air tools that have been languishing in my tool box since I moved down here.

[Acer Saccharum]

From day one, I've wanted to get some of those Lindsay templates. They are ideal for a sharpening that you will use day in and day out, like a 90 graver.

I didn't realize until I looked closer at the system that you HAD to use 3/32 tools with them, which is a bit of a bummer. Do you think you could drill out the collet to take an 1/8 or 3/16 bit, or make up a larger tool holder? I have not found any tool companies that sell 3/32 bits, smallest being 1/8 square. GRS and Lindsay sell the 3/32.

Dave, I look forward to hearing how you like the templates for sharpening.

Acer

[northmn]

There is such a thing as natural talent.  I had a cousin that never was trained but could sketch out a person like a camera.  As one with a teaching background we were trained to view students according to the "normal curve" for talents.  67% fell into the "normal" range and the rest fell into both ends of the talent spectrum.  Kind of explains what TOF was talking about, where even with the interest, the ability did not seem to click.  Some people cannot read, period.  The letters do not come togehter for them.   I heard a rumor that the founder of Texas Instruments Calculators could not read, but was a whiz with electronics.  Etc.  Artistic talents should also fall into these ranges.  Determination can only carry one so far.  Sometimes what occurs is the ability to adapt the talents to ones limitations in such as manner as to still have something special.  Aptitude
testing is often done to try to help an individual focus and avoid frustrations.

DP

[T*O*F]

I didn't realize until I looked closer at the system that you HAD to use 3/32 tools with them, which is a bit of a bummer. Do you think you could drill out the collet to take an 1/8 or 3/16 bit, or make up a larger tool holder?

It's not a collet per se.  It's a square U shaped insert with a thumbscrew on the open end.  One could take an 1/8" bit and grind one side so it was 3/32 x 1/8.  I don't know if that would throw the grind angles off to any extent.  The other way would be to take a square needle file and open the U up to 1/8 inch.  That might be preferable, but I haven't checked to see how hard it is.  It's too small to go up to 3/16ths.

Since Steve is a board member, perhaps he will read this and see the opportunity for additional sized collets.  The larger sizes would be ideal for grinding small chisels and scrapers that could be used for wood carving.