Author Topic: silver sideplate ID help (Read 3631 times)

Osprey · « **on:** April 24, 2018, 01:41:28 AM »

A buddy gave me a sterling silver sideplate when I started talking about a future Jaeger build I'm planning, one of a few originals he had that a friend of his gave him years ago. He didn't have any info and I haven't seen one like it, anyone have any idea what sort of gun it may come from? Fairly large, will fit the Davis Jaeger lock almost perfect.

smart dog · « **Reply #1 on:** April 24, 2018, 02:47:59 PM »

Hi,
If it does not have hallmarks it is not likely British. I am guessing that it is continental European but whether French, German, Belgian, etc. I do not know. One thing I noted in my books about German guns is how uncommon silver decoration seems to be. There are certainly examples with silver side plates but not to the extent you see that practice on French and Belgian guns. Given the motif of birds, rabbits, and hunting dog, I suspect it was from a fowling gun, maybe a French one.

dave

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2018, 03:43:43 PM »

It's a reaves goering casting. He told me it's English, I agree. Don't put it on a jeager.
http://www.fowlingguns.com/englishfowler1.html

James Rogers · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2018, 06:24:02 PM »

Yep, a copy of an English plate. I have one like it for pistol size and tried to find one like yours when Mike was building my son's gun years ago. Here is a close similarity in fowling piece size that was used by Griffin, Richards and Harmon.

smart dog · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2018, 06:54:32 PM »

Hi,
Well not being an original would explain the lack of hallmarks. It does have motifs used on British guns but so did the French and Belgians. Did Goehring offer mounts in silver?

dave

James Rogers · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2018, 07:08:32 PM »

Hi Dave,
Yes, years ago Reeves had various side plate offerings in sterling. When I last talked with him about them about 8 years ago either the molds or the last few he had were stuffed away in a garage where he could not get to them.

Osprey · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2018, 11:52:02 PM »

I love this place, can pull something out of thin air and somebody will know. That is definitely it Mike, but I think it may be an original and not a Reaves. Much thicker than the one on your gun in the link and it does have stamped markings on the back. I had to take a macro pic and look at it on the computer to see much, but the top line is either DB or IDB, then there are three symbols below it, a lion, shield and lower case r. I can't post the pic until I happen to be near wifi and a better connection, but that's what I think they all are. Stampings are near the front lock bolt hole.

The guy who gave it to me has had it for over 20 years and he was told it was off an original gun, so there's that, too? At least now I know I have to build an English folwer at some point, too.

smart dog · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2018, 12:19:53 AM »

Hi,
Is there an anchor in the shield? Is the lower case "r" in a shield shaped mark?

dave

Osprey · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2018, 12:27:53 AM »

I don't see an anchor, although there is something on the shield in the middle, just can't make it out. The r is sorta italic lower case script, the stamping mark could be interpreted as a shield, but I think it's just the stamp shape.

Osprey · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2018, 12:31:04 AM »

I looked again blown up in photo software, and now it really looks like it could be a griffin first, then a face wearing a crown, then the r. The stampings are only a couple millimeters in size.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2018, 12:53:44 AM »

If it's an original I wouldn't put it on a gun, it's too valuable as a pattern piece. You need to take it to somebody who can make a rubber mold and then get some sterling castings from it.

Osprey · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2018, 01:15:35 AM »

Had to go find a good connection! Thanks for all the help and replies!

sz · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2018, 01:40:56 AM »

Hey, any of you guys cast silver of G. Silver in a left hand version> I have a request for a LH gun silver mounted, and I thought I would have to chisel the whole thing, but if a casting were available ------------------------- I might think it's worth asking for.

James Rogers · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2018, 04:23:58 AM »

Aren't those silver marks cast into the plate and not stamped?

smart dog · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2018, 02:30:02 PM »

Hi James,
You may be right. They don't look very clear. They are London marks but I cannot tell if the date is 1792 or 1832. The maker stamp looks like the stamp for David Blair who worked in Birmingham but apparently did business in London. Maybe he might use the London assay office but that seems odd since he was registered in Birmingham. If it is Blair, the 1792 date is most likely.

dave

JV Puleo · « **Reply #15 on:** April 28, 2018, 09:37:54 PM »

What you are calling hallmarks are assay marks. They certify that the article is a certain quality of silver... ie. sterling. There were plenty of gun mounts made of coin silver and these don't, or shouldn't have, assay marks. However, visually they look identical which is why silver was assayed in the first place.

Birmingham didn't have an assay house until 1772. Prior to that, if a Birmingham maker used sterling mounts he had to purchase them from someone who had them assayed in London or Chester. Even after the Birmingham house opened the trade in silver mounts would have continued although most of the Birmingham guns I've seen, with sterling mounts, used silver supplied by Charles Freeth who seems to have specialized in gun mounts.

David Blair, the Birmingham gunmaker, died in 1815.

James Rogers · « **Reply #16 on:** April 28, 2018, 10:10:21 PM »

I agree. Another term for hallmarks could be assay marks as the assay office dictated the required hallmarks. The hallmarks include the various marks denoting things like the standard or quality, city, maker, etc.

smart dog · « **Reply #17 on:** April 28, 2018, 11:07:36 PM »

Quote from: Osprey on April 25, 2018, 01:15:35 AM

Had to go find a good connection! Thanks for all the help and replies!

Hi Osprey,
FYI. The rectangular stamp with "DB" is the silversmiths's mark. It could be David Blair. The large mark with the lion (not griffen) indicates sterling silver. The shield, which likely has a crowned lion face in it is the city assay office mark, in this case London. Finally, the mark with the letter is the date stamp, which may be for 1792 in this case.

dave

Osprey · « **Reply #18 on:** April 29, 2018, 02:20:44 PM »

Thanks! Really neat info and way more than I expected. I'll set it aside for an English fowler at some point and do something different for a Jaeger.

Dave Ciekot

JV Puleo · « **Reply #19 on:** May 01, 2018, 01:06:54 AM »

If those are assay marks there is something odd here. Assay marks have to be visible...that was how someone could tell it was sterling. I've never seen them stamped on the back of things.

smart dog · « **Reply #20 on:** May 01, 2018, 01:31:33 AM »

Hi Joe,
That is not always true. The silver butts on many Georgian pistols were stamped under the the separate cap and were not visible. There is no place to stamp the front of the side plate without harming the design. In fact, I do not believe I have ever seen a fancy sculpted silver side plate with hall marks on the outside.

dave

James Rogers · « **Reply #21 on:** May 01, 2018, 02:06:35 AM »

I have only seen hallmarks on the back of open work English sideplates

JTR · « **Reply #22 on:** May 01, 2018, 05:33:03 AM »

I don't know, it's only a picture, but those marks look cast in place, not stamped.
John

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Author Topic: silver sideplate ID help (Read 3631 times)