Author Topic: Schimmel "Barn Gun" appropriate for pre-Revolution time period?  (Read 1796 times)

Pmringer

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I am curious as to evidence dating the use of these simple style practical rifles.  Many are seen in .45 and .50 and there is a lot of evidence suggesting that rifles prior to the Revolution were larger caliber rifles seen in a transitional style from the large bore Jaegers to the more decorated Pennsylvania schools (ie an Early Virginia style).  Does anyone have any evidence or references supporting the presence of these practical rifles being used during the longhunter era around the French and Indian war and up into the Revolution?  It is said these were based on Berks and Lehigh patterns which are completely different, Berks being shorter and stouter like a transitional rifle and the Lehigh being long and lean.

Thanks,
Patrick
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 03:23:47 AM by Pmringer »

Offline smart dog

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Re: Schimmel "Barn Gun" appropriate for pre-Revolution time period?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2018, 03:48:14 AM »
Hi Patrick,
First, there are so few documented pre-Rev War and even Rev War rifles to know much about typical calibers and many other details with much certainty.  There is a lot of speculation and a lot of modern folks make "transition" long rifles that could be pure fantasy.  As far as "barn guns" go, what authority are you citing when you state they were mostly Berk's and Lehigh county designs? 

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Stophel

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Re: Schimmel "Barn Gun" appropriate for pre-Revolution time period?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2018, 04:04:28 AM »
Basically, no.  Though many people will cry "the plain guns were all used up!", I think it just isn't so.  There ARE plain (even rough) barn guns from PA (and other places, I suppose), primarily in the Lehigh and Berks and Schuylkill county areas.  The buttplate-less, lock stock and barrel types (they still exist, and they weren't all used up...). But they only go back MAYBE to, say, 1800.  Generally even later than that, though.   

My belief is that the reason you find this type of gun in this period is one of economics.  With increasing industrialization, and the decreasing price of locks and gun barrels, cheap guns became feasible (also, aesthetics were simply changing, unfortunately...  ;D )  .  When barrels and locks and all were expensive, and these parts were probably the lion's share of the cost of making a rifle, it made no sense to make something rough and plain when it was going to cost a fortune anyway.  Might as well make it a nice one.   When rifle barrels began to be produced by barrel mills in much greater quantity, the price naturally would go down, and the cheap rough gun became a viable option.

I got to handle a couple of Berks/Schuylkill county barn guns several years ago.  I think they have a charm all their own, but finely finished guns they were not.  I made one, myself, though I know I finished it way too nicely!   ;D

Not to say that there aren't (possible) pre-Revolutionary rifles that are relatively plain in carving and decoration, they are not rough barn guns, and are complete with the full set of normal brass hardware, buttplates and all.   ;)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:39:33 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Schimmel "Barn Gun" appropriate for pre-Revolution time period?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2018, 04:34:13 AM »
There were plain rifles in the Revolutionary War period here and there. But rifles were always much more expensive than smoothbores because it’s a lot of work to rifle a barrel. 

Plain rifles Shumway illustrated in Muzzle Blasts articles:
Nov 1993: uncarved 1770s with an Oerter-looking sideplate, wooden box.
August 1982: uncarved daisy box Lancaster rifle, 1770s to 1790s.  Great architecture; long wrist.
May 1978: now seen as an early Berks gun, no carving, wooden box

Wallace Gusler September 2003: Old Holston rifle, iron mounted with forged furniture, very plain.  Open guard suggests quite early, to me.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Stophel

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Re: Schimmel "Barn Gun" appropriate for pre-Revolution time period?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2018, 05:29:40 AM »
Hey, Rich, not to get sidetracked, but have you compared the May 1978 gun (RCA 104) with this?
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48179.0

The cheekpiece is the kicker.

" It is said these were based on Berks and Lehigh patterns which are completely different, Berks being shorter and stouter like a transitional rifle and the Lehigh being long and lean."  ...  Well, not exactly.  It all depends on time period and just exactly where you are in Berks county.  In the Eastern part of Berks county (generally the Allemaengel region) there began to be an interesting (and sometimes confusing) blend of Lehigh, Bucks, and "proper" Berks county forms.  As to being short, my favorite Berks county rifle has a 50" barrel!   ;D  They're not any shorter than anything else.  They do, however, often maintain a certain "fullness", long after guns from other regions have mostly shriveled to scrawny hockey sticks.   ;D  And prior to the 1780's, Lehigh/Northampton guns tend to be rather stout in form too (the "Edward Marshall" rifle is massive, even by German standards).  It's all about time.

The term "transitional rifle" is still popular, but I don't think it really has much substance.  Almost like the term "early".  I'd rather be much more specific.

Hey, it's been a long time since I talked about any of this stuff, so I'm jumping in with both feet! 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:31:05 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Schimmel "Barn Gun" appropriate for pre-Revolution time period?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2018, 05:34:36 AM »
Stop her, I started another topic in the antiques section .
Andover, Vermont