New builder looking to learn

[Tracker0721]

Hey Ladies and Gents,

I’m 24 and heading to gunsmithing school outside of Denver this June but have really started to fall in love with muzzleloaders and pretty much all the older “arts”. Started with flintknapping, then bows, then forging, and have had gunsmithing since high school. I’d like to have a career in gunsmithing and am now considering what it would take to have a side specialty in muzzleloaders.

So I’m wondering if any pros have any advice or tips and if there are any builders in or around Denver(Golden) that wouldn’t mind a weekend apprentice hovering in their shop? I’ll be in school for 14 months and it’s only mon-thurs so I’ll have plenty of free time. GI Bill is picking up most of my tab too so that’s nice.

Thanks for any response and thanks for all the wonderful information here!

Dylan

[Lucky R A]

      My advice would be to not specialize strictly in muzzleloaders if you intend to make gunsmithing your main source of income.  I certainly understand the allure of muzzleloaders, but one has to eat and pay the bills.  Judd Brennen once said "building muzzleloaders is a fine way to starve to death---slowly!"   You will likely need several specialties to support yourself into the future.  Many of us who now build full time also have another source of income...retirement or whatever.   
Ron

[Sawfiler]

Watch this space for postings about classes. I was lucky enough to win a KRF youth scholarship to a Canters Cave class this January. I know Muzzleloader Magazine had a student there as well. It helped my gun building tremendously over the course of that week. I am nowhere near where I would be to make a living at it, but the class sure helped me progress. Without the generous scholarship I could not have afforded the time off, cost of the class, and supplies needed to attend.

[Goo]

I was curious and had similar ideas, I took a long rifle to a modern weekend gun show to get a feel for the reactions and reception in the general population for nice authentic muzzleloaders.   I got a broad range of reactions which was basically a reality check.   Those who seemed to be the most receptive and admiring had no money, those that had money were uninterested .  All rolled with tears of laughter when I told them the price.   
It's a tough market out there and if you are going to do this befriend someone who is extremely knowledgeable about these longrifles and learn from them.    The ability to distinguish and recreate the Subtlies in design and architecture are essential,  you don't want to build $300 guns out of a $1000 worth of parts

[smart dog]

Hi Tracker,
Jack Brooks is in Englewood, CO.  He may be a source of inspiration and teaching.
www.jsbrookslongrifles.com

dave

[Mike Brooks]

If I were to do this all over again I'd learn to be a modern gun gunsmith and make some real money. Most folks think the word "muzzleloader" means "cheap". I don't think I have ever seen a modern 'smith cross over into ML's and not have their work show it, there are suttle nuances that modern 'smiths always seem to miss. You better build a few ML's and try to sell them before you truly 'fall in love" I have built muzzleloaders exclusively for 38 years, 22 of those years full time. I'm not rich.
At your age I'd go find some high tech job that pays well and has great benefits. Besides, the anti's may put you out of business before you even get started in gunsmithing.

[Tracker0721]

Oh! To be clear, I like the wood work, metal work, fitting, the customization. Each one comes out unique. But by no means would I chose muzzleloaders as a main specialty. I’d like to be amongst the best at restoration and combo guns. That’s how I got started was fixing up dads old rusty guns in the closet. Restoring those old family barn finds that I could save and have last a few more generations. Building a muzzleloader and building one well seems it could teach very valuable lessons for a modern Smith. Reading and watching videos is great but like all my other hobbies hands on instruction works best for me.

Thanks for the replies so far and confirming what I already thought, the ones who specialize solely in muzzleloaders are IMPRESSIVE.

[Hungry Horse]

My advise to a budding young gunsmith would be to develope an unnatural apitite for rice, and beans. Quite literally every young man that I have known over the past forty years, that has followed this course, is no longer working at it. The one exception was a young man that branched off into hand engraving, and found he can actually make a reasonable amount of money at it. Modern gunsmithing is a litigation nightmare just for starters. Most gunsmiths turn into gun dealers, because that’s the only way to get rid of repaired, or even custom projects that customer don’t pick up. Major in something else, and make this your favorite hobby. JMO.

  Hungry Horse

[n stephenson]

As far as building muzzleloaders for money, I agree Mike Brooks , find a tech job to make money , then fool with guns on the side. From what I can tell about modern guns , many of them probably wont be worth fixing in years to come, too much plastic, JMHO. The muzzleloading world has been shrinking for years , there has been pages and pages written about the , why , and how to recruit newcomers etc. With the trend being less people getting involved , there is less "market share" to go around for builders. Everyone that wants to can pile on , but I`m going to say it like it or not. With all the new "snap together" gun kits coming out, there won`t be incentive for people to "learn" gunbuilding. Kind of the" give a man a fish" thing. I know , I know , we`re gonna take these kits , and "revitalize " the sport!!! NO , it`s just the muzzle loading world`s version of Walmart , running the "mom and pop" stores out of business. Yes that is how "business" works , it`s great!! And there will be those who hold their nose in the air and say "quality work will always be in demand"  To them I will say "when you feel froggy , try outworking a CNC machine" Report back on how your doing! Now everyone that would like to can pile on , and tell me how little I "understand" about how things work. Get back with me in 20 years and , we`ll see!!  Nate

[Mike Brooks]

Get back with me in 20 years and , we`ll see!!

Ain't nobody going to be building these things in 20 years. Parts suppliers will all be long gone. Interest inn these things will be long gone as well. How's that for bright and cheery?
 I'm just hoping all those folks that supply us with parts will keep going as long as I do, another 6 years and I'm off to Tahiti.

[deepcreekdale]

Best of luck to you Tracker, when I was 24 and had just gotten out of the service, I too wanted to be a gunsmith. So, I went to...nursing school. Let me work 12 hour shifts 3 days a week, made decent money with plenty of spare time. It allowed me to enjoy the learning process and build a decent rifle over the years. Not to discourage you but I know many full time modern gunsmiths, none of them make what would be considered a decent living and most are unhappy in their work as basically all they do is swap out parts any more. I have one friend, one of the nations premier builders of competition .45 autos and he is, shall we say, poor. The day of the gunsmith building custom guns, making custom modifications to fine quality firearms to enhance accuracy and appearance or even doing interesting repairs on high quality firearms is pretty much over. All that being said, you do what will make you happy, don't be satisfied with anything but your absolute best and with time, you will develop a following. I always have about 3-4 builds waiting from customers but do not expect to get rich as many have pointed out.

[Iktomi]

At your age I'd go find some high tech job that pays well and has great benefits. Besides, the anti's may put you out of business before you even get started in gunsmithing.

 ^^^
This

 Read until it is indelibly ingrained in your mind.

 While I don't build muzzleloaders yet, I am a pretty skilled traditional bowyer. Similar type of people invoked in both trades from my observation. I have seen, literally, hundreds try to get into the business, become disillusioned and go broke in 6 months. I've played with the idea of going in to the trad archery business myself, but it will wait until I retire from my profession if I decide to dabble in it. As a young man, do what you can to secure your future for yourself and any family you may raise first, even if it doesn't involve guns. In the long run, you won't regret it.

[smart dog]

Hi Tracker,
Take heed of the pessimists and realists but realize that no one can predict the future very reliably.  I say forge ahead  because at your age you can reinvent yourself many times over if you have to.  Mike Brooks is right about gunsmiths making modern firearms often do not transition to making traditional muzzleloaders very well.  I think it is easier for muzzleloading gun makers to build modern guns than the other way around.  Anyway, working with a good muzzleloading maker will help you and visit every museum and collection of original muzzleloading guns that you can so you can visualize what they are supposed to look like and how they are made.  Good luck.

dave     

[thelongrifle]

In my experience the only ones making much money in muzzleloading are the ones selling parts that the rest of us buy to make guns out of . It is hard to make a decent hourly wage building muzzleloaders or any custom guns for that matter. Find something to make a good living and do gunwerks on the side to satisfy your passion.

[Bob Roller]

If I were to do this all over again I'd learn to be a modern gun gunsmith and make some real money. Most folks think the word "muzzleloader" means "cheap". I don't think I have ever seen a modern 'smith cross over into ML's and not have their work show it, there are suttle nuances that modern 'smiths always seem to miss. You better build a few ML's and try to sell them before you truly 'fall in love" I have built muzzleloaders exclusively for 38 years, 22 of those years full time. I'm not rich.
At your age I'd go find some high tech job that pays well and has great benefits. Besides, the anti's may put you out of business before you even get started in gunsmithing.

At one point in time,late 60's and early 70's ANY thing made for a muzzle loader had to be CHEEEEP no matter
how nicely it was made.That crappy attitude made me jump at the chance to send any lock I made to Germany
where attitudes were much different and money was there to back a quality market.Douglas barrels also was in
the process of getting out of muzzle loaders and did.
Being rich is a fascinating idea but a lot of money can be a disaster as well.We,my wife and I are not rich in money
but we have no debt and enough to live on and in that respect we may be rich.That plus peace of mind.
I have had bad experiences with modern guns and long.long ago I quit trying to fix them and even if I got the job
done there was griping and groaning about the cost.It usually starts "When I was a boy" and gets worse from there.
I substituted making odd parts for long defunct cars and bearings for transmissions that had not been made for years.
Now at 82 I still make up a lock or trigger once in a while and I charge more to do it and won't pay anyone to buy them
at a "dealers"price.Set an hourly rate and stick to it.Just because it's a gun does NOT mean skilled labor is worth less.

Bob Roller

[Bill Raby]

I build guns because I enjoy doing it. I can build anything that I feel like building and take as much time as I want. If I was trying to finish up a gun before the electricity got turned off it would just take all the fun out of it.

[Mike Brooks]

Not to disillusion you, BUT, I started building at 23. Nobody to teach you anything back in those days, you just sort of "figured it out".
 Now, my brother on the other hand went to the DeVry Institute of Technology and at 52 years old has retired twice. He went back to work once  again not too long ago due to boredom. He makes mid six figures. He probably makes more money in one year than I have in my entire life...... You'd be better off going to DeVry on the GI Bill.

[Jerry V Lape]

Hey he is a young and has plenty of years left to try his hand at whatever his passion might be.  And that can change to a new passion at any given point.  But you forget there are those out there making differences and probably decent money as parts suppliers and even extremely well done popular kits who are able to make a decent living at this too.  The times are changing and the age of all hand labor is in decline as modern machinery is brought to affordable levels.  Perhaps this young man will take the incorporation of new technology in producing muzzleloaders to a new level.  Look what Jim Kibler has done.  I expect he has produced more longrifles in the last three years than the most prolific among us has made in a life time. 

[Clark Badgett]

A wise old man back in my youth once told me, "If you want to hate what you love, do it for a living." If you love working with metals look in to a machining trade, most places are begging for us now since all the old guys are retiring or gave up during the early 2000s slump. It pays the bills and gives money left over to enjoy working with guns and wood and......well you can fill in the blanks.

[Iktomi]

  A good friend of mine is a top-shelf bowyer. His bows became very in demand and he wound up with so much work that he ended up hating it. Went back to his trade of building houses. He started off as a hobbyist, turned his fun into a grind and I think he still isn't doing much with archery.

A wise old man back in my youth once told me, "If you want to hate what you love, do it for a living." If you love working with metals look in to a machining trade, most places are begging for us now since all the old guys are retiring or gave up during the early 2000s slump. It pays the bills and gives money left over to enjoy working with guns and wood and......well you can fill in the blanks.

[Nordnecker]

I've enjoyed reading these responses. Life's lessons and observations are worth heeding. Everyone's experience is different. It's interresting how your opinions change over the years. When I was 24, I had no interrest in having a structured, everyday job. I did not pursue a career. I found myself in construction because the seafood business was in serious decline. Being self employed certainly has its ups and downs. But now, at 51, I am feeling my physical limitations and simply cannot do what I used to be able to do.
The people who stuck to a workaday job and didn't have all that "free time", like I did, are now starting to retire. I think to myself, They were the smart ones. But on the other hand, I've seen a few fortunes get lost. One fellow I know was so highly thought of by his employer was left 11 million dollars when he died. He blew it in about 3 yrs. I have seen another family business get liquidated and sold off- and I mean these people had it going on, but it caught up with them after 3 generations.
So, There's no certainty. My wife got canned one month shy of 30 yrs being employed by a large company. They called it downsizing. She was devastated.
Good luck with your decisions. Hope it works out well.

[axelp]

yeah, making it "work" can really screw up a completely satisfying hobby. I used to get a lot of satisfaction drawing and painting until I made a career out of it. Now in my free time, I get more satisfaction building fences and taking care of a couple of useless goats. LOL.

[Jim Kibler]

As far as building muzzleloaders for money, I agree Mike Brooks , find a tech job to make money , then fool with guns on the side. From what I can tell about modern guns , many of them probably wont be worth fixing in years to come, too much plastic, JMHO. The muzzleloading world has been shrinking for years , there has been pages and pages written about the , why , and how to recruit newcomers etc. With the trend being less people getting involved , there is less "market share" to go around for builders. Everyone that wants to can pile on , but I`m going to say it like it or not. With all the new "snap together" gun kits coming out, there won`t be incentive for people to "learn" gunbuilding. Kind of the" give a man a fish" thing. I know , I know , we`re gonna take these kits , and "revitalize " the sport!!! NO , it`s just the muzzle loading world`s version of Walmart , running the "mom and pop" stores out of business. Yes that is how "business" works , it`s great!! And there will be those who hold their nose in the air and say "quality work will always be in demand"  To them I will say "when you feel froggy , try outworking a CNC machine" Report back on how your doing! Now everyone that would like to can pile on , and tell me how little I "understand" about how things work. Get back with me in 20 years and , we`ll see!!  Nate

Hi Nate.  No problem at all with you sharing your thoughts.  I know you mean well...

As to the muzzleloading world shrinking for years, I'm not so sure.  From what I understand, many business that have been around for years have seen the trend of continual growth and sales have been pretty strong in recent years.  This is only what I've heard and it's certainly not scientific or a comprehensive.  I can personally state that we've been experiencing good growth and many of our customers have been new to muzzleloading.

Our kits aren't quite "snap together" yet, but they are getting there.  I will say that is where we're heading and we'll get there soon.  I want to make things a simple as possible and to eliminate as many pitfalls as possible.

There is always two sides to a debate like this...  Kits like ours might change the custom gun world a little bit, but they will also expose many more people to high quality traditional muzzleloading.  I don't think you were refering to quality with the Walmart comparison, but I can assure you and others that you won't find any better quality with a fully custom made rifle.

I've been on both sides of the fence.  I've stood over a bench pushing a file for days on end but also learned to use technology.  I can say this, custom muzzleloading as a reasonable source of income isn't feasible except for a very few number of individuals.  It takes somebody with artistic and mechanical ability that can and is willing to work hard and fast.  It's difficult and demanding work for sure.  Not to mention you have to devote more time than I coudl quantify towards learning and understanding what makes a fine rifle.  There are a handful that make a good go of it today, but not many.

I've taught many classes over the years.  Although most everybody has a great time, it became clear pretty quickly that most don't have the ability to do efficient quality work.  To be honest, most struggle.  Even with lots of practice and devotion, most never will develop this ability.  I think hand skills are on the decline and the amount of time people have to devote to hobbies and interests seem to be less and less.  I've always hesitated saying these things out loud, but I believe it's the truth.  This is where I think our business model and kits fill a void.  People who would otherwise be on the side lines or would have become frustrated with other options now can learn, have success and become part of the muzzleloading community.

Custom gun making will always be here.  To develop a cnc produced kit like we offer takes more work than I can easily describe.  The latest kit probably took at least 6 month of solid work on my end.  There is a substantial dollar value to this.  Add in very expensive machines, facilities etc and the investment becomes more clear.  Also, all the design, set-up etc. only allows for one particular style.  This is so different than fully custom work. 

I think this is the same concerns people always have with change.  I understand, but I also believe that progress is good.

All the best,
Jim

[n stephenson]

Jim, No offence taken, The reference to Walmart, was NOT based on quality at all . I have handled a number of your kits and, fully agree , they are the BEST out there. My point was that there is only a certain amount of people that are going to buy a ML rifle in a year`s time period. I have spoken to quite a few muzzleloading business owners , not just builders and, every one of them told me point blank , that since your SMR kit was released , they had basically no orders for SMRs , unless they were left handed. This isn't something that I imagined , it came straight from their mouths. While business may be booming for you and your suppliers , others have been effected. This is just part of business , but it does have an effect on others as well.   I have NO problem with anyone starting a business , and being successful. That is the American way, I applaud  the dedication and hard work you have put into it. There is nothing at all wrong with it!!  On the other hand there is no sense in denying reality. Will your guns make top quality shooters ABSOLUTELY. Will they bring new  people into the sport ABSOLUTELY. Will they allow people to get their hands on a beautifully designed , correct ML rifle ABSOLUTELY . Will they take away the need to learn how to do something with an individuals hands ABSOLUTELY.   Will the next Jim Kibler  come along and buy one of your kits and put it together and never learn anything more?  My whole point is , go for it!! sell as many as you can , just don`t be surprised in the future if even more people , can`t do anything with their hands . It`s just another step in the dumbing down of society anyway. I just hope that everyone that is lining up turning backflips now , is around later to complain that, they can`t find anyone with skills to do anything. Another morsel they might contemplate is ,why can you buy original Brown Bess and Charlieville muskets cheaper than a nice new custom rifle? Maybe because they were mass produced? Best of luck in your venture!!  It just never hurts to look at the whole picture , not just the part we want to see.  JMHO Nate

[Bill Raby]

   Jim Kibler is right about people not having the ability to work with their hands anymore. I used to do custom goldsmith work and it was next to impossible to find employees that could do a decent job. There would be a steady flow of people applying for jobs that had years of experience. Every last one of them was a "Master" goldsmith trained by some European master or an ancient Chinese sorcerer, or some such nonsense. Job interview would consist of sitting them down at the workbench and have them make something. Half of them would vanish at lunch time. The other half would proudly show off their absolutely incompetent work and tell you how amazing it is. And this is people with years of experience doing this kind of work. It was only rare occasions that someone would show up with samples of their work and let that do the talking for them. Now jewelers use computers and 3d printers to do pretty much everything. Even when there is no practical use for it. So they are limited to what can easily be done with a computer and not capable of anything else. Actual skills have mostly vanished in the last few years.

   I am sure that the same thing is happening in every field. People go straight to the computer and never develop the manual skills. On the good side, prices will be going up for fine hand work. I think engraving is the perfect example. A computer engraving machine is not too terribly expensive. The work they do looks fake, and it is cheap to get it done. Good hand engraving is iobviously not done by machine and is very expensive. Prices will only keep going up as there are fewer and fewer people capable of doing it.

   The fancy machines have many advantages, but they also have their limitations. Ask Mr. Kibler to explain why his kits do not have carving on the stocks. Some things are still better done by hand.

   I think that what Mr Kibler is doing is the future of muzzleloading. It makes it accessible to a much broader range of people. In the end the custom builders will still be here. But they will be fewer in number and better paid. As for me, I am not interested in kits. I don't want to build a gun over a weekend. I want to spend months on it!